Social Reverend refuses to baptise baby

COTUR1@43 said:
I think the pastor should have maybe counseled the couple and see if they wanted to get married. I can see if there started being a large number of persistent unwed couples with children wanting to basically have church sanction it could be problematic. The couple can certainly receive God's grace and forgiveness but are they repentant and willing to get married? The parents are supposed to guide/nurture the child in the faith (bringing them to church etc...) as they grow up. Baptism is not a "work" of the person/child but the work of the Triune God through the water and the word. Faith, Grace and Baptism all work together and are not mutually exclusive. Here is a pastor of my Lutheran denomination (LCMS) speaking on baptism:
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Is he steering himself or is jesus taking the wheel?






Just joking sherbro :)
 
fingercuffs said:
The thread has been a learning curve, for sure. I thought being christened was about the baby going to heaven if it died and not being held in purgatory for eternity. Apparently it's about selfish vicars and a knees up for parents.
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Most people would agree with you. If this couple happen to be true believers, I am sure they subscribe to the belief that baptism washes away original sin. When in fact, some level of commitment to god might be a prerequisite. Like the baptism scene in O Brother, Where Art Thou. Of course, the problem is Christianity often requires a theologian's dedication to interpret this stuff, and in many cases it's just people designing excuses for its problems. That's one reason why I will bring up Job and watch people try to defend it (sorry for the derail, by the way). As if centuries of study and interpretation can change the common meanings of words.
 
sickc0d3r said:
Most people would agree with you. If this couple happen to be true believers, I am sure they subscribe to the belief that baptism washes away original sin. When in fact, some level of commitment to god might be a prerequisite. Like the baptism scene in O Brother, Where Art Thou. Of course, the problem is Christianity often requires a theologian's dedication to interpret this stuff, and in many cases it's just people designing excuses for its problems. That's one reason why I will bring up Job and watch people try to defend it (sorry for the derail, by the way). As if centuries of study and interpretation can change the common meanings of words.
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The Church of England started on very dodgy ground to start with, I shouldn't be surprised at this revelation..
 
sickc0d3r said:
Most people would agree with you. If this couple happen to be true believers, I am sure they subscribe to the belief that baptism washes away original sin. When in fact, some level of commitment to god might be a prerequisite. Like the baptism scene in O Brother, Where Art Thou. Of course, the problem is Christianity often requires a theologian's dedication to interpret this stuff, and in many cases it's just people designing excuses for its problems. That's one reason why I will bring up Job and watch people try to defend it (sorry for the derail, by the way). As if centuries of study and interpretation can change the common meanings of words.
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Do you think the story of Job is a literal story that actually happened historically? I also wonder if you've ever heard as I have so often that the wisdom in all of the Old testament is quite imperfect and historically conditioned.

Any wisdom that can be gleaned from job automatically requires conceding an imperfect worldview on the part of the author doesn't it?

Or do you only use this tack with fundamentalists?
 
aldeniro78 said:
Some preachers have preferences when it comes to conducting a wedding. It's their right whether people like it or not. There are plenty of choices out there.
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Just make sure they're not allowed to put in the collection plate too........
 
fingercuffs said:
I agree. Him being a twat and changing his mind makes a mockery of it all. I hope they find another church to settle into and hopefully find another person to baptise their child.
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Agreed. Sounds like he made one decision and either felt guilty or someone talked him into changing his mind. Have convictions and stick to them.
 
sickc0d3r said:
Sure, suffering to test his faith. “Worship me not matter what I do to you!” — The G-Man.
So brilliant, and not at all authoritarian.
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You expect God to not be authoritarian? What do you expect if you pray to him..."Dear God, I really need your help and guidance on what I should do in my life...Tell me what I should do? God: "Hey sorry, I would tell/show you...but I'm a little worried some of you would find it too 'authoritarian'...so good luck." What would you need a non-authoritarian God for? "Hey God should I do this?..."Uh, just do whatever you want...its all good." If you believe in God Almighty you should want to strive to live your life in a way that pleases him...HIS WILL not yours. The Bible is filled with examples of men disobeying God and living according to their will above God's and there are always consequences.
 
I'm sure the baby will be able to grow up going every 7 days to have the same book read to them for a few hours regardless for the rest of their life.
 
Codpiece said:
Job’s lack of complaint precludes his reward, actually. Job had no way of knowing what would come to him after God had spoken to him, whether more suffering or blessing.
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Here is an example of how a religion can warp fragile human minds.

If the Christian God is real, nothing in reality happens outside of its plan. God created Satan with the intention of letting this supernatural being torture people like Job for its amusement.

Your god is evil.
 
ShadBo said:
Here is an example of how a religion can warp fragile human minds.

If the Christian God is real, nothing in reality happens outside of its plan. God created Satan with the intention of letting this supernatural being torture people like Job for its amusement.

Your god is evil.
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Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this.

I agree with your recognition of the sovereignty of God in the Bible. You're ahead of many Christians in that regard! I would also agree with your assessment of God being evil, but only if this life were the entire story for each of us. Please don't forget that the story of Job (whether fictional or real) takes place within a framework of God's eternal purposes. With that in mind, temporary suffering of wilfully sinful people (Job acknowledges his sinfulness in the book) is not without reason, and will have a positive result. The story doesn't hang in midair.

To your point, I wonder what your thoughts are regarding parents who are material naturalists. They choose to have children into this world where joy is possible but temporary, suffering virtually guaranteed and death inevitable. After which...what? Nothing. They choose to have children who never ask to be brought into the world, who will suffer and die and who have no hope. It seems to me they're guilty of the very thing you'd accuse God of, creating life which will lead to suffering, but without any eternal purpose or the prospect of hope beyond this life. The only difference I see is that the parents have no specific vision of what that suffering may be. Not trying to be a smartarse, I'd really like to know what you make of that.
 
sickc0d3r said:
It is the entire premise of the story. It’s literally the only way Satan could “win” his bet with God.

“Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face”

God proceeded to give Satan permission to put forth them hands on Job’s family, and wealth, and health to prove he was right and Satan was wrong. Job would not curse God (say mean things).

I suppose it’s possible Job would be rewarded either way, but, either way, his kids were all slaughtered. And taking the Lord’s name in vain is a sin. Presumably even if the Lord tries to make you do it as a test.


Again, I’m not saying anything that isn’t written in plain text.
The reward for his loyalty included replacing his slain kids with some new kids.
Apparently, Job was supposed to be happy because his new daughters were beautiful (I guess more beautiful than his 3 original daughters?).

“So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses. 42:13 He had also seven sons and three daughters. 42:14 And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Keren-happuch. 42:15 And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren”

People can certainly be cool with this, and find spiritual meaning or whatever, but I can’t see how anything I’ve said is even debatable.
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My question was "how do you know what would happen to Job had he said mean things about God?" You didn't answer that. The truth is, none of us know what would have happened. He doesn't do that in the narrative. But we do know that God forgives all kinds of sins (Peter's denial of Christ, for example of something somewhat similar).

The kids aren't replacements. Job simply had more children as his health and prosperity returned. Guess he forgave his wife.
 
So this priest willingly condems this baby to eternity in hell and punish an innocent for something their parents did, or didn't do in this case.
This is christianity in all it's glory and this priest is very typical for many if not most christians, they are full of shit posers who only claim to believe the bullshit in the bible, but in reality only use it when it suits them.
 
Chappi said:
So this priest willingly condems this baby to eternity in hell and punish an innocent for something their parents did, or didn't do in this case.
This is christianity in all it's glory and this priest is very typical for many if not most christians, they are full of shit posers who only claim to believe the bullshit in the bible, but in reality only use it when it suits them.
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This was my argument. Allegedly it's about the parents, and no one cares about the kid getting into Heaven.
 
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