Revisiting the "World Class" Wrestler Label

[dsdoubled]

Some time ago I posted a thread attempting to list all of the world class wrestlers who have taken at least 1 MMA fight. What wound up happening was more of a debate over the world class label itself rather than a listing of world class wrestlers. The biggest point of contention was basically "How can a wrestler with little or no experience on the word stage be considered word class?"
This sentiment was directed towards wrestlers I listed that only had, or primarily had, NCAA accolades.

Now I don't want to get too hung up on labels, but I find myself feeling strongly that the level, skill, strength, and athleticism of an NCAA Division I All American is more or less on par with other International freestyle wrestlers just entering the senior level international freestyle scene. Obviously there are always going to be outliers but it seems that overall, if you stick with senior level international wrestling, a multiple time NCAA champ is good for world/Olympic medals, even some gold ones, and being an NCAA All American is good for making world teams and/or scoring some big wins internationally and winning/medaling in the international tournaments aside from worlds/Olympics.

Short version, overall, the level of competition in NCAA Division I wrestling is on par with the level of other college aged international wrestlers competing n the world stage.

Thoughts? Criticisms? Disagree?

Original Thread:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/world-class-wrestlers-who-have-tried-mma.3226159/

 

[asian-glow]

Caveat: I know nothing about wrestling and even less about thinking clearly.

When someone tells me they are a world class wrestler, I assume that they have medaled at a senior level, international tournament or that they have beaten people who have. Perhaps the bar can be "lowered" to simply beating other international level representatives, regardless of what these representatives have won.

I am unfamiliar with the average age of freestyle world/olympic champions but this study about GR wrestling indicates that "the best, peak wrestling performance [for GR wrestlers] is achieved at the age span of 24-27 years (Bompa, 1999)". This may skew older than what would be true for freestyle, as I'm under the impression that GR wrestlers generally have longer careers. With that said, this age range seems to be about the average age that some NCAA D1 champions medal at the world level (Olympics and Worlds).

I say some because I based this on looking up the wikipedia pages of NCAA D1 champions from the last 10 years; only about half of them have an available link. Of the half that did have a link, a majority of them seem to have podiumed at the world level, but usually a few years after college, which would fit the above age range of 24-27. Because these D1 champions seem to peak (i.e. podium) at the same average age as other international level wrestlers, I'm extrapolating that these American wrestlers were on par with other, similarly aged wrestlers around the globe during their college years.

On the subject level of labels, someone at a 10th planet told me they were an international level wrestler a few weeks ago. I'm assuming this means that you were at least on the world team of your respective country?

 

[dsdoubled]

Caveat: I know nothing about wrestling and even less about thinking clearly.

When someone tells me they are a world class wrestler, I assume that they have medaled at a senior level, international tournament or that they have beaten people who have. Perhaps the bar can be "lowered" to simply beating other international level representatives, regardless of what these representatives have won.

I am unfamiliar with the average age of freestyle world/olympic champions but this study about GR wrestling indicates that "the best, peak wrestling performance [for GR wrestlers] is achieved at the age span of 24-27 years (Bompa, 1999)". This may skew older than what would be true for freestyle, as I'm under the impression that GR wrestlers generally have longer careers. With that said, this age range seems to be about the average age that some NCAA D1 champions medal at the world level (Olympics and Worlds).

I say some because I based this on looking up the wikipedia pages of NCAA D1 champions from the last 10 years; only about half of them have an available link. Of the half that did have a link, a majority of them seem to have podiumed at the world level, but usually a few years after college, which would fit the above age range of 24-27. Because these D1 champions seem to peak (i.e. podium) at the same average age as other international level wrestlers, I'm extrapolating that these American wrestlers were on par with other, similarly aged wrestlers around the globe during their college years.

On the subject level of labels, someone at a 10th planet told me they were an international level wrestler a few weeks ago. I'm assuming this means that you were at least on the world team of your respective country?

I appreciate the time you took to research this. As for the 10th planet guy claiming to be an international level wrestler, that doesn't necessarily imply making a world team. Throughout the year plenty of wrestlers compete at International, senior level, events. If you are one of these guys you are really good (the vast majority of the time). Winning these tournaments is also very impressive, but even amongst the wrestlers who compete and medal internationally, they don't all make a world team. They are good enough to make world teams but to make a world team you have to specifically win the world team trials.

Most of the top USA Wrestlers take turns beating each other, so technically you can be world class, or international level, without ever making a world team.

 

[Your Noodly Master]

Meisha Tate is world class if you ask Joe Rogan.

 

[ArtemV]

Yeah, I agree. Khabib is a decent wrestler, but nowhere near "world class". Covington would make him look silly imo. Khabib probably was a better wrestler when he was younger, but he focused on mma.

 

[skibum90]

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/3/...2.1024420642.1540478508-1070761330.1534288160

Coach Mike Riordan wrote a blog post about this on Bloody Elbow back in the day.
He only considers styles contested in most countries ie Greco or Freestyle
World class to him is top 7 or the ability to place in the top 7
For ability to place in top 7 he considers top 3 in US WTT or top 2 in US Senior Nationals or top 3 at Junior or University worlds.

 

[tekkenfan]

americans get confused especially those who never had wrestling in there school because unlike bjj there is no ranking system in boxing u have amateur and pro in wrestling u have 3 different styles in school till college its folkstyle then you have the worlds in freestyle and greco and olympics and so many people get it confused calling guys world classwrestler if they won a tournament in colege ect

most mma fans dont even know the difference between folkstyle and free style

 

[Deleted member 405583]

I love this topic. I was just having a conversation at work on why i stoppped listening to joe rogan. The world class wrestler tag was one of the reasons actually

 

[dsdoubled]

I love this topic. I was just having a conversation at work on why i stoppped listening to joe rogan. The world class wrestler tag was one of the reasons actually

I think about a guy like Koscheck. Has no international experience and very little senior level freestyle experience. The bulk of his resume is a fantastic NCAA career placing 4th, 3rd, 1st, and 2nd in which he beat many guys who went on to international success. In the time that he did wrestle senior level freestyle he defeated at least a few guys who won world medals and made Olympic teams. He has no world experience but he's most certainly world class.

 

[Normot]

Yeah, I agree. Khabib is a decent wrestler, but nowhere near "world class". Covington would make him look silly imo. Khabib probably was a better wrestler when he was younger, but he focused on mma.

I don't think we can possibly tell how good a wrestler Khabib is. He dominates DIII and Juco wrestlers in MMA that would make him seem to be at the very least, a very good DI level wrestler. I don't really understand Kabibs style though, since watching it, his ground control makes hm seem like a US collegiate wrestler, but that isn't his background. I don't get Sambo.

 

[rmongler]

I don't think we can possibly tell how good a wrestler Khabib is. He dominates DIII and Juco wrestlers in MMA that would make him seem to be at the very least, a very good DI level wrestler. I don't really understand Kabibs style though, since watching it, his ground control makes hm seem like a US collegiate wrestler, but that isn't his background. I don't get Sambo.

He trains at AKA with Daniel and Velasquez and all the other collegiate guys they bring in for training, DC is the guy running the practices and does a lot of boosting for bringing in wrestling talent. If his game looks like it has folkstyle influence, it's because it does.

 

[Deleted member 405583]

I think about a guy like Koscheck. Has no international experience and very little senior level freestyle experience. The bulk of his resume is a fantastic NCAA career placing 4th, 3rd, 1st, and 2nd in which he beat many guys who went on to international success. In the time that he did wrestle senior level freestyle he defeated at least a few guys who won world medals and made Olympic teams. He has no world experience but he's most certainly world class.

He said the same about hendricks and a few others. Was disgusting imo how free he is with that term

 

[skibum90]

He said the same about hendricks and a few others. Was disgusting imo how free he is with that term

Who? Joe Rogan?

 

[skibum90]

I think about a guy like Koscheck. Has no international experience and very little senior level freestyle experience. The bulk of his resume is a fantastic NCAA career placing 4th, 3rd, 1st, and 2nd in which he beat many guys who went on to international success. In the time that he did wrestle senior level freestyle he defeated at least a few guys who won world medals and made Olympic teams. He has no world experience but he's most certainly world class.

I think Josh Koscheck is borderline world class. I get that he had great success in folkstyle but it's hard for me to call someone WORLD class with just success in folkstyle. He probably could have gone on to do well in freestyle but he didn't so I find it hard to play the what if game.

The names from your original list that I do not think are world class are Frank Trigg and Matt Hughes. Also I saw that later you wanted to add Kamaru Usman and I don't think the University freestyle tournaments are as competitive but I might be wrong on that.

A name I would add though would be Deron Winn.

 

[Deleted member 405583]

Y

Who? Joe Rogan?

Yes. Thats about when i stopped listening to him, he said the same about fitch and i couldnt take it anymore.

 

[skibum90]

Hendricks at least won NCAA championships. Fitch had a mediocre at best wrestling career.

 

[skibum90]

Alright I am ready to get a new list of World Class wrestlers in MMA going. I am only counting Greco and Freestyle success right now

Daniel Cormier
Ben Askren
Henry Cejudo
Yoel Romero
Rulon Gardner
Mark Coleman
Kevin Jackson
Mark Schultz
Mark Kerr
Dan Severn
Matt Lindland
Dan Henderson
Randy Couture
Steve Mocco
Cole Konrad
Joe Warren
Shawn Bunch
Darrion Caldwell
Ed Ruth
Bubba Jenkins
King Mo
Royce Alger

I know I am missing some and I am not good with some of the foreign wrestlers and non US MMA promotions.

 

[skibum90]

Add Amir Aliabakari of Iran who fights in Rizin

 

[rmongler]

If you have the data/background information to know 'people successful in D1 competition frequently go on to success in international competition as well should they choose', then you can reasonably say something like 'a wrestler that places all-american is world class'.

If you are more or less unfamiliar with the subject, then it is reasonable to be conservative and only call wrestlers with demonstrated success in international competition 'world class', in order to be less wrong.

 

[dsdoubled]

I think Josh Koscheck is borderline world class. I get that he had great success in folkstyle but it's hard for me to call someone WORLD class with just success in folkstyle. He probably could have gone on to do well in freestyle but he didn't so I find it hard to play the what if game.

The names from your original list that I do not think are world class are Frank Trigg and Matt Hughes. Also I saw that later you wanted to add Kamaru Usman and I don't think the University freestyle tournaments are as competitive but I might be wrong on that.

A name I would add though would be Deron Winn.

I think you may have misread the post you are responding to. Koscheck did compete in senior level FS tourneys and in the short time he defeated Andy Hrovat (Olympian) Don Pritzlaff (world medalist) Matt Gentry Olympian) and a bunch of other studs. In freestyle.