RICKSON GRACIE (The FUTURE of Jiu-Jitsu, ENDORSES Ryron & Rener's Curriculum, Gracie University)

[BJJ_Rage]

And I don't?

If you are doing 1 hr BJJ classes 2x a week, all you have to do is skip one of them once a month and hit up a striking class instead. Half the time it's in the same gym.

That won't make you the MMA champ either, but it goes pretty far for defending yourself as the "average Joe."

Come on Bro, 1 striking class a month, one of the problems i have with striking arts is that they take waaaaay too long to see results... At the begging of my journey we were very tight With the mt team, since we share the same space, we went to most of their competitions, all hoobiest none pro for what is worth, but these guys were putting 1 hour at least 5x a week in training... If you walked in the gym and saw the do shdows or hitting pads you would've think, holy shit these guys are going to murder someone if they fight... Well as Soon as they got in the ring at the competitions, it was good old head down and punches and horrible kicks started to flow, and this was the norm across the whole event, Im quite sure it's the same in other parts of the world too... The winners are normally based on pure raw power strength and some luck. it takes a lot of training for strikers to see the result of their striking training , a lot to overcome physical disadvantage. one hour a of any type of striking art means very little if anything...

 

[SBJ]

Rickson is 100% correct.

What he said and what you wrote are not the same thing.

 

[Balto]

Come on Bro, 1 striking class a month, one of the problems i have with striking arts is that they take waaaaay too long to see results... At the begging of my journey we were very tight With the mt team, since we share the same space, we went to most of their competitions, all hoobiest none pro for what is worth, but these guys were putting 1 hour at least 5x a week in training... If you walked in the gym and saw the do shdows or hitting pads you would've think, holy shit these guys are going to murder someone if they fight... Well as Soon as they got in the ring at the competitions, it was good old head down and punches and horrible kicks started to flow, and this was the norm across the whole event, Im quite sure it's the same in other parts of the world too... The winners are normally based on pure raw power strength and some luck. it takes a lot of training for strikers to see the result of their striking training , a lot to overcome physical disadvantage. one hour a of any type of striking art means very little if anything...

I think striking is easier to get to a basic competency level than grappling. I think it's the opposite at the higher levels, but for basic competency, I think striking is easier. I mean I could be biased, but I am at least at the basic level in both, and that's my take on it.

When you watch two guys in the ring together, they have both been training 1 hour at least 5x a week as you said. So it makes sense that they are cancelling out skill to a large extent.

What does it look like to you when you see a white belt match in a BJJ competition? Both guys have a little bit of training right? It looks pretty ugly too doesn't it?

But we know that if we put some first day dude off the street against either of those same two white belts, it looks different now doesn't it? That's the magic of BJJ?

It's not much different in striking. Only difference is that in striking, it is a lot rarer to let first day dudes off the street spar. And you'll hardly ever see one in the ring. But if you do get to see one of these matchups, it kind of looks like what happens in BJJ too.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I think striking is easier to get to a basic competency level than grappling. I think it's the opposite at the higher levels, but for basic competency, I think striking is easier. I mean I could be biased, but I am at least at the basic level in both, and that's my take on it.

When you watch two guys in the ring together, they have both been training 1 hour at least 5x a week as you said. So it makes sense that they are cancelling out skill to a large extent.

What does it look like to you when you see a white belt match in a BJJ competition? Both guys have a little bit of training right? It looks pretty ugly too doesn't it?

But we know that if we put some first day dude off the street against either of those same two white belts, it looks different now doesn't it? That's the magic of BJJ?

It's not much different in striking. Only difference is that in striking, it is a lot rarer to let first day dudes off the street spar. And you'll hardly ever see one in the ring. But if you do get to see one of these matchups, it kind of looks like what happens in BJJ too.

Again, basic competency in striking means absolutely nothing, raw atheltism is going to most of the times overcome basic competency. My example wasn't about 2 guys stalling out, my example was 2 guys throwing punches and kicks not much different than what any regular untrained joe would do. White belts with Sime experience totally tool new guys (let's suppose we are talking about people of similar physical skills) even if the new guy goes balls to the wall, he's getting tooled. that cannot be said about striking, a basic white belt or someone with basic striking knowledge gets the heat on by a new dude and all the sudden it becomes a brawl not any different that what it would look like 2 guys with zero training, I've seen it many times Happened. Basic striking meaning throwing a punch, yes it's quite easier, but anyone can throw a punch, and you don't need to be a technical master to throw a good punch. However, grappling. Goes against human nature, once people goes to the ground, the difference in skills is way too big.

Just to add to th conversatikn I am a bb in tkd (who isn't) I've done many tears of karate and sipalki do, never in my entire life that training gave me any type of securtity genome facing bigger people, grappling on the other hand...

 

[Balto]

Again, basic competency in striking means absolutely nothing, raw atheltism is going to most of the times overcome basic competency. My example wasn't about 2 guys stalling out, my example was 2 guys throwing punches and kicks not much different than what any regular untrained joe would do. White belts with Sime experience totally tool new guys (let's suppose we are talking about people of similar physical skills) even if the new guy goes balls to the wall, he's getting tooled. that cannot be said about striking, a basic white belt or someone with basic striking knowledge gets the heat on by a new dude and all the sudden it becomes a brawl not any different that what it would look like 2 guys with zero training, I've seen it many times Happened. Basic striking meaning throwing a punch, yes it's quite easier, but anyone can throw a punch, and you don't need to be a technical master to throw a good punch. However, grappling. Goes against human nature, once people goes to the ground, the difference in skills is way too big.

I've had pretty different experiences man. I've seen plenty of BJJ white belts with a couple months struggle with strong athletic new guys on the ground. I've also seen random "street fighters" throwing haymakers get taken apart by a dude that has just enough training to keep his hands up and his punches quick and straight. I've also seen things go the other way in both scenarios too.

Just saying that after all the years, they really don't seem that different to me. That is all. Just my observations having gone through it.

 

[kpoz12]

I guess Saku, Tamura, Oyama, Kid Yamamoto, Matt Hughes, and Genki Sudo proved that there is something seriously wrong with Gracie Jiu Jitsu then?

 

[Was at Pride GP 2000]

I guess Saku, Tamura, Oyama, Kid Yamamoto, Matt Hughes, and Genki Sudo proved that there is something seriously wrong with Gracie Jiu Jitsu then?

Nope they all learned Gracie Jiu Jitsu. They should say thank you

 

[Codger]

And I don't?

If you are doing 1 hr BJJ classes 2x a week, all you have to do is skip one of them once a month and hit up a striking class instead. Half the time it's in the same gym.

That won't make you the MMA champ either, but it goes pretty far for defending yourself as the "average Joe."

Have you watched the combatives course? It's not just about getting to the clinch. They have modified techniques and such as mount escapes to put the avoidance of being knocked out at the top of the priorities list whilst still using the BJJ principles. It's good.

if you've watched it and disagree then I'd be interested to know why. If you haven't then I'd suggest getting hold of a copy (not hard....) and then making your mind up.

Obviously BJJ masters like the Gracies are going to focus on promoting BJJ rather than MMA and as you say, pure BJJ isnt always the answer and that cross training is always better than not cross training but that is a separate issue to training BJJ with real fighting in mind. Knowing boxing doesn't help at all when you're mounted and being punched. Having an escape setup that largely negates the punching and then getting on top does.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

[

I've had pretty different experiences man. I've seen plenty of BJJ white belts with a couple months struggle with strong athletic new guys on the ground. I've also seen random "street fighters" throwing haymakers get taken apart by a dude that has just enough training to keep his hands up and his punches quick and straight. I've also seen things go the other way in both scenarios too.

Just saying that after all the years, they really don't seem that different to me. That is all. Just my observations having gone through it.

couple of months, yeah sure... but after 6 months, a normal person should be able to handle noobs, after a year even more.

Anyways, yeah we probably had different experiences, I guess what Im talking about is more of early UFC strikers, where you could see very little if any technique by any of the so called strikers. Those guys were probably just hobbiest who trained 5 hours a week and thought they were going to fight just as they "trained".

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I guess Saku, Tamura, Oyama, Kid Yamamoto, Matt Hughes, and Genki Sudo proved that there is something seriously wrong with Gracie Jiu Jitsu then?

I dont think mma is the theme here.

 

[Balto]

The problem I see is that we are just retreating back to self-defense because things have evolved past GJJ in the other area.

I trained pretty pure line GJJ for a couple years. I was just a blue belt under Balance, but the Migliarese brothers were early Relson black belts in America and taught all aspects of the GJJ system. It was definitely marketed as a complete art with multiple components.

The true self-defense part was not shown as what is in Combatives nowadays, but rather the static Helio kata techniques. This was the part that was supposed to teach you to protect yourself against real attackers with knives, clubs, and guns. It also taught you to defend against attacks that only really come up in wild brawls like headlocks.

The punch safe concepts in the Combatives was the MMA/vale tudo part of the system. That was for challenge fighting and fighting in MMA shows. It wasn't really taught as something distinct from MMA because, in the late 90s and early 00s, that part was the most effective MMA fighting system out there. Guys were literally coming out of the gym and dominating MMA fights using pretty much pure GJJ at that time.

There was the sport BJJ part. That's alive and well now too.

There was the health/fitness/diet part. That was the Gracie Diet, yoga routines, etc.

Nowadays though a lot of things have changed and move on quite a bit from the old ways. GJJ is no longer the dominant MMA system. Sport BJJ has changed a ton and looks very different now. Science shows that core Gracie Diet concepts are just not based in reality.

The only part that we don't really have an empirical test for is self-defense. So that's what GJJ is best at now. Only thing is every other martial art out there claims to be the best at the very same thing, again without any real evidence or way of testing this.

I mean if you talk to someone who does Aikido, he will make exactly the same arguments as made on here. Well, yeah Aikido won't make you an MMA champ, but I don't have time for that. Plus MMA is a sport now anyways. I'm just a regular guy with a job and kids. I can't be going to MMA classes and busting up my face fighting 20 year old beasts. Against an untrained guy on the street, Aikido is the best art for the average Joe like me to defend himself.

We all know a BJJ guy is going to crush an Aikido guy. A lot of us have done so. But that won't change a lot of their minds. Because since we are BJJ guys, we are not the average guy on the street they are training for, so whatever we do doesn't matter.

But when modern MMA shows that there are better ways of doing things, we say well we are not training to fight against a modern MMA fighter, so it doesn't matter?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

The problem I see is that we are just retreating back to self-defense because things have evolved past GJJ in the other area.

I trained pretty pure line GJJ for a couple years. I was just a blue belt under Balance, but the Migliarese brothers were early Relson black belts in America and taught all aspects of the GJJ system. It was definitely marketed as a complete art with multiple components.

The true self-defense part was not shown as what is in Combatives nowadays, but rather the static Helio kata techniques. This was the part that was supposed to teach you to protect yourself against real attackers with knives, clubs, and guns. It also taught you to defend against attacks that only really come up in wild brawls like headlocks.

The punch safe concepts in the Combatives was the MMA/vale tudo part of the system. That was for challenge fighting and fighting in MMA shows. It wasn't really taught as something distinct from MMA because, in the late 90s and early 00s, that part was the most effective MMA fighting system out there. Guys were literally coming out of the gym and dominating MMA fights using pretty much pure GJJ at that time.

There was the sport BJJ part. That's alive and well now too.

There was the health/fitness/diet part. That was the Gracie Diet, yoga routines, etc.

Nowadays though a lot of things have changed and move on quite a bit from the old ways. GJJ is no longer the dominant MMA system. Sport BJJ has changed a ton and looks very different now. Science shows that core Gracie Diet concepts are just not based in reality.

The only part that we don't really have an empirical test for is self-defense. So that's what GJJ is best at now. Only thing is every other martial art out there claims to be the best at the very same thing, again without any real evidence or way of testing this.

I mean if you talk to someone who does Aikido, he will make exactly the same arguments as made on here. Well, yeah Aikido won't make you an MMA champ, but I don't have time for that. Plus MMA is a sport now anyways. I'm just a regular guy with a job and kids. I can't be going to MMA classes and busting up my face fighting 20 year old beasts. Against an untrained guy on the street, Aikido is the best art for the average Joe like me to defend himself.

We all know a BJJ guy is going to crush an Aikido guy. A lot of us have done so. But that won't change a lot of their minds. Because since we are BJJ guys, we are not the average guy on the street they are training for, so whatever we do doesn't matter.

But when modern MMA shows that there are better ways of doing things, we say well we are not training to fight against a modern MMA fighter, so it doesn't matter?

well, that sucks bro, I can tell a very old school lineage such a valente bros and such would teach SD as those helio Static sd technique, some are nice to know, like standing guillotine escape and others, but most of it right now should be looked at as part of the culture, its certainly not going to make a difference when a fight breaks down. Im all about the new combatives system as GJJ SD, I think the rorion boys already realized that those techniques arent going to cut it anymore, and sort of re branding the thing, mixing SD with vale tudo training, the result is the new combatives system.

 

[Balto]

Rener and Ryron seem to be the only ones really doing new things with GJJ these days, so I think that's good. I like some of their stuff for sure. The Bullyproof program in particular seems really good. I'd like to teach my kid some of that stuff.

I just see the Combatives used sometimes as a substitute for doing the more obvious training. For example, I train with this older guy who is a blue belt. He is awesome, trains with us, and supplements with Combatives at home. I think that's great.

His adult son only does Combatives though for some reason. He literally won't come to the gym with his dad no matter what. His reasoning is that he only wants to do self-defense, so sport BJJ classes, MT classes, and MMA classes aren't a good idea I guess. Even though those are all offered at the same place and would really help a lot.

It's not like you have to be hardcore to come to an MMA class. Tons of regular people come too. Pro fighters know not to go hard on them. Regular Joes are not getting wrecked. But they are getting experience throwing strikes on the ground with guys who actually throw on the strikes ground, for real, in the cage. So that's a valuable learning experience that you just can't get in your garage with your buddies.

Overall I just think people take what ought to be a supplement and make it the only thing too often. Not sure if that's really anyone's fault, but I don't think I'll ever understand it.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Rener and Ryron seem to be the only ones really doing new things with GJJ these days, so I think that's good. I like some of their stuff for sure. The Bullyproof program in particular seems really good. I'd like to teach my kid some of that stuff.

I just see the Combatives used sometimes as a substitute for doing the more obvious training. For example, I train with this older guy who is a blue belt. He is awesome, trains with us, and supplements with Combatives at home. I think that's great.

His adult son only does Combatives though for some reason. He literally won't come to the gym with his dad no matter what. His reasoning is that he only wants to do self-defense, so sport BJJ classes, MT classes, and MMA classes aren't a good idea I guess. Even though those are all offered at the same place and would really help a lot.

It's not like you have to be hardcore to come to an MMA class. Tons of regular people come too. Pro fighters know not to go hard on them. Regular Joes are not getting wrecked. But they are getting experience throwing strikes on the ground with guys who actually throw on the strikes ground, for real, in the cage. So that's a valuable learning experience that you just can't get in your garage with your buddies.

Overall I just think people take what ought to be a supplement and make it the only thing too often. Not sure if that's really anyone's fault, but I don't think I'll ever understand it.

combatives without rolling is quite bad IMO, as you said, its a nice complement, but not a substitute for rolling...

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

combatives without rolling is quite bad IMO, as you said, its a nice complement, but not a substitute for rolling...

At CTC schools, each combatives class has "reflex development class" which a fancy way to say positional sparring. Like "start under bottom side control, shrimp escape against resistance, switch roles after each escape" for rounds. I know it's not the same as full in sparring but just throwing out the info.

Plus most schools DO spar at white belt from what I've seen (just don't tell Rener I said that lol).

 

[SBJ]

combatives without rolling is quite bad IMO, as you said, its a nice complement, but not a substitute for rolling...

"Rolling", in the context of this discussion, is someone using jiu-jitsu vs someone using jiu-jitsu.

The goal of achieving proficiency in Gracie Combatives is someone using jiu-jitsu vs someone using the most common street fight reactions (i.e. trying to punch you in the face). The "bad guy" partner starts at easy level, and increases speed and resistance to 100% relative to the progress of the "good guy" student.

Rolling is great and obviously an indispensable training process for learning jiu-jitsu. It just part of the next phase of learning, not the beginning.

When you teach someone who has never been in the water, how to swim, it's not ideal to just throw them in the ocean, or deep end of the pool. A safer and more productive approach would be to take baby steps, and start them in the shallow end, under close supervision, and teach them the basics of how to survive, float, move, breath, not panic, etc. first.

It takes time, practice, and mastery of the basics before they should be cut loose to do whatever they want in the deep end.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

At CTC schools, each combatives class has "reflex development class" which a fancy way to say positional sparring. Like "start under bottom side control, shrimp escape against resistance, switch roles after each escape" for rounds. I know it's not the same as full in sparring but just throwing out the info.

Plus most schools DO spar at white belt from what I've seen (just don't tell Rener I said that lol).

I fully don't agree with not rolling, I do believe the reflex development class has its use, it's quite good and situational sparring is where most of the learning is done in general...

"Rolling", in the context of this discussion, is someone using jiu-jitsu vs someone using jiu-jitsu.

The goal of achieving proficiency in Gracie Combatives is someone using jiu-jitsu vs someone using the most common street fight reactions (i.e. trying to punch you in the face). The "bad guy" partner starts at easy level, and increases speed and resistance to 100% relative to the progress of the "good guy" student.

Rolling is great and obviously an indispensable training process for learning jiu-jitsu. It just part of the next phase of learning, not the beginning.

When you teach someone who has never been in the water, how to swim, it's not ideal to just throw them in the ocean, or deep end of the pool. A safer and more productive approach would be to take baby steps, and start them in the shallow end, under close supervision, and teach them the basics of how to survive, float, move, breath, not panic, etc. first.

It takes time, practice, and mastery of the basics before they should be cut loose to do whatever they want in the deep end.

I understand the point, I just dont agree with it.

Situational sparring is great, drilling etc. Hell I even agree that for the first couple of months combatives should be all they are getting. I put myself into the student roll and I remember how much I hated doing some spyder guard at my first or second class.

that being said, I think rolling is a fundamental part of bjj, is the core, and from my POV, is what makes bjj so much different from other arts. So, at the end of the very first class, I will have the new person roll, depending on his physical skills, would be only with me or may be if he feels good and he is having fun with some other high belts. THIS is fun rolling, not learning rolling or anything else, basically just tell the person to have fun, try to get around my legs then mount me and if he feels like he can try to finish me with whatever he can come up with. One thing that most new guys could have is fear or will be nervous about his first roll because hes not used to look at it as a roll, so he could look at it as some kind of physical confrontation, even if you fully explain to him, sometimes you can see that the person is full on adrenaline, is the instructors job in this case to put on a big ass smile and explain that is just about having fun, like kids.... If you take this notion out that he is rolling for dear life right from the start, I believe bjjs addictive properties (which lies in rolling) will take place faster. Then again, sometimes the new guys is just not some X dude and is there to see if this "ninja shit" works for real, normally athletes type of guys. They need a special type of rolling, enough to make him open his eyes and see first hand that this stuff works, thats the only way these type of people are coming back.

 

[deadlizard]

Nope they all learned Gracie Jiu Jitsu. They should say thank you

Saku learned GJJ before he fought Royce? This is certainly news to me.

 

[deadlizard]

Errrrr......

.....what?

It's very clear to me you do not train the real form of self defense

 

[Codger]

It's very clear to me you do not train the real form of self defense

Whatever mate. Your getting pretty tedious with this one to be honest.

Some of us are having an adult conversation about it. Go play with your toys and we'll call you when we're finished.