Rose KO over Zhang is highly overated

[Sanserif]

Agree with TS. That fight doesn't prove shit. I'd like to see a rematch.

It proves that zhang is not as technically good as many people thought. Even in the way they moved around each other in the first round nanajunas's footwork and movement was far more deliberate and smooth and she easily avoided zhang's counter punches. While zhang scored some leg kicks, namajunas showed her jab was able to land tellingly on several occasions.

 

[AFewDollarsMore]

Rose please grows your hair!!!

 

[Sanserif]

I said it means something, mostly about Rose's power, speed, timing, and gameplan. But you have to admit that there is also a factor of luck—getting lucky that Zhang really did follow her programming, and getting lucky that the kick completely rocked her shit when we've seen Zhang take similar shots in the Joanna fight without slowing down.

My point is that this win doesn't mean that Rose starches her in a rematch. There are matches between fighters with much larger skill gaps that go to a decision. The skill gap here is pretty small so part of this win—not all of it, but part of it—is circumstance and luck.

Your post did not mention anything about namajunas' sped timing skill or power or gameplan - you ony expressly mentioned luck. That was why I commented what I did on my reply as I thought that was a disservice to namajunas and her team.

If zhang was programmed to respond in the heat of the moment with her hands opened up when she did the swayback then there is no luck involved in her responding exactly that way in her fight- because she is programmed to do so. Nmajunas and her team must have spotted the habit watching her video in her previous fgits and training clips. Many nak muay of great experience also drop their hands when they do that swayback of their hips. However in nuay thai u don't see that sort of disguised sliding footwork usually so they get away with it - they are also very conscious about ranging and would probably notice that their opponent got too close to risk that swayback evasion.

Furthermore the fact that the kick dropped her when none of joanna's blows could drop zhang points to how powerful namajunas's kicks really were. It must be recalled that zhang also couldn't drop Joanna either but namajunas knocked down joanna when she fought joanna herself - twice. The second knockdown was the knock out.

Admtedly zhang diid not expect the kick that ko her from namajunas and the strike thar you dot expect is the strike that knocks u out but the above is evidence that points to namajunas's striking power as being significantly greater than both zhang and joanna. Which is not the narrative that many people here imbibe evidently. So a rematch may go the same way because while zhang is probably more physically resilient and stronger in the clinch and wrestling, namajunas hits harder than she does and can ko her at any time.

 

[Terrestrial Extra]

Wei li and the OP both did not know that namajunas' team had already detected her tendency to sway back her hips to avoid low kicks without protecting her head and so decided go train a feint that could take advantage of that allied with namajunas' non muay thai based tkd turning kick and sliding step footwork

The difference is that zhang's team must have immediately realised their mistake after her ko but some sherdog members here sill do not see it

This is pretty much it. Great coaching and gameplanning by Whitman and great feint set-up leading to the head kick by Rose. Perfect execution down the line. Haters gonna hate though... I mean obviously it wasn't as violent as the Jiri KO but it was still a great KO from a true MMA fan's perspective.

 

[AGEZ909]

Rose kicked the hair of Zhang's head.

Don't be a h8r bruv

 

[Sanserif]

This is pretty much it. Great coaching and gameplanning by Whitman and great feint set-up leading to the head kick by Rose. Perfect execution down the line. Haters gonna hate though... I mean obviously it wasn't as violent as the Jiri KO but it was still a great KO from a true MMA fan's perspective.

I believe there the reason why prochazka ko is more liked than the ko that namajunas did is more down to the fact that many viewers' bloodlust - they want to see brutality and violence more than rhey want to see tactical cunning and skill on display. For me, I watch fight clips for the latter reason as I am interested in ufc and mma fights out of interest in martial arts and styles and combative excellence. I think pandering to bloodlust is not too far removed from the same sort of sickness that was pondered to by the Roman empire when they stated gladiatorial combat in the arenas to pander to the mobs in Rome and that is a sadism that is not a good idea to encourage both from a public policy ground and from a personal character perspective.

 

[10mm]

 

[krelianx]

While I wouldn't go as far as calling it a fluke, I'd bet if they rematched the odds wouldn't move dramatically. Yes, Rose would be the favorite, but this wasn't a very comprehensive sample of how a fight between them would go most of the times.

 

[imbossing]

Like a lucky punch basicaly

- She throwed a random high kick like you saw ten times per event

- Zhang expected a low-middle kick so tried to avoid that

- So its more Zhang fault for misreading the shot than Rose credit for throwing a wonderful shoot out of nowhere, the kick was not even fast or powerfull, Zhang just give her head, made a huge mistake

Usman and Jiri KO are way more impressive

Discuss

You are right. It was hella overrated.

 

[wildchild88]

I'm a massive Wei Li fan, maybe the biggest on sherdog, but I think that K.O. is spectacular.

A lead round house landing perfectly on the chin, and the way Wei Li fell.. it was painfully devastating, partly because of me not wanting to see Wei Li go out in such spectacular fashion.

 

[TankAbbott4Eva]

Like a lucky punch basicaly

- She throwed a random high kick like you saw ten times per event

- Zhang expected a low-middle kick so tried to avoid that

- So its more Zhang fault for misreading the shot than Rose credit for throwing a wonderful shoot out of nowhere, the kick was not even fast or powerfull, Zhang just give her head, made a huge mistake

Usman and Jiri KO are way more impressive

Discuss

Fighter deliberately throws strike which lands in the intended place and knocks out the opponent but it's lucky, never understood this. People were saying similar shit about Bisping over Rockhold, again those left hooks were aimed at Rockhold's head.

 

[Sanserif]

While I wouldn't go as far as calling it a fluke, I'd bet if they rematched the odds wouldn't move dramatically. Yes, Rose would be the favorite, but this wasn't a very comprehensive sample of how a fight between them would go most of the times.

Namajunas' striking coach is a canny tactician and I suspect he had trained namajunas to set up many more traps for zhang that have yet to be seen since the first one obviously worked almost immediately. Namajunas is lso aa bad match for zhang because she has the reach advantage and is a better striker and even on the ground she has the bjj submission skills to reverse on zhang. Hence I don't understand why namajunas is even seen as the underdog against zhang.

 

[achoo42]

Fighter deliberately throws strike which lands in the intended place and knocks out the opponent but it's lucky, never understood this. People were saying similar shit about Bisping over Rockhold, again those left hooks were aimed at Rockhold's head.

Most luck involved: Insta-KOs

Least luck involved: Conclusively winning a 3-5 round war

Even if insta KOs are only—say, 15% luck—they still require significantly more luck than winning a fight like Max vs Kattar where every facet and difference in skill, work, conditioning, talent, gameplan, and fight IQ are on full display for the viewer.

 

[Sanserif]

Most luck involved: Insta-KOs

Least luck involved: Conclusively winning a 3-5 round war

Even if insta KOs are only—say, 15% luck—they still require significantly more luck than winning a fight like Max vs Kattar where every facet and difference in skill, work, conditioning, talent, gameplan, and fight IQ are on full display for the viewer.

You have not explained why a knock out in the first round will necessarily contain more "luck" than a drawn out 3 to 5 round fight. Both involve the successful application of skill and coaching and planning and training to the problem of overcoming an opponent. The only difference is that in the case of a knock out like namajunas' on zhang, the execution of the planned move was so perfect that it led to the immediate incapacitating of the opponent. So the difference is in fact that the ko involves greater skill quotient than the drawn out fight.

 

[achoo42]

Your post did not mention anything about namajunas' sped timing skill or power or gameplan - you ony expressly mentioned luck. That was why I commented what I did on my reply as I thought that was a disservice to namajunas and her team.

If zhang was programmed to respond in the heat of the moment with her hands opened up when she did the swayback then there is no luck involved in her responding exactly that way in her fight- because she is programmed to do so. Nmajunas and her team must have spotted the habit watching her video in her previous fgits and training clips. Many nak muay of great experience also drop their hands when they do that swayback of their hips. However in nuay thai u don't see that sort of disguised sliding footwork usually so they get away with it - they are also very conscious about ranging and would probably notice that their opponent got too close to risk that swayback evasion.

Furthermore the fact that the kick dropped her when none of joanna's blows could drop zhang points to how powerful namajunas's kicks really were. It must be recalled that zhang also couldn't drop Joanna either but namajunas knocked down joanna when she fought joanna herself - twice. The second knockdown was the knock out.

Admtedly zhang diid not expect the kick that ko her from namajunas and the strike thar you dot expect is the strike that knocks u out but the above is evidence that points to namajunas's striking power as being significantly greater than both zhang and joanna. Which is not the narrative that many people here imbibe evidently. So a rematch may go the same way because while zhang is probably more physically resilient and stronger in the clinch and wrestling, namajunas hits harder than she does and can ko her at any time.

I did not mean to detract from Rose's win because it was specatacular and showed her power, timing, and preparation.

But here is my point:

Do you believe that Rose would KO Weili like that 9/10 times? If not, then there must be a certain amount of luck going into it.

On the other hand, we saw conclusively that Holloway would beat Kattar 9/10 times. Anderson Silva would beat Forrest Griffin at least 9/10 times. GSP would beat Dan Hardy at least 9/10 times. Randy Couture would beat Tim Sylvia at least 9/10 times...etc.

Do you see how there is a difference in these matchups in terms of how much luck is involved? When we can accurately gauge the skill level and the skill gap of the two contenders, that is where we can put our foot down and say "yup, luck had nothing to do with the win."

In the case of Rose/Weili and Conor/Aldo, I just don't see how this is the case.

 

[Moeshaak Hammer]

Like a lucky punch basicaly

- She throwed a random high kick like you saw ten times per event

- Zhang expected a low-middle kick so tried to avoid that

- So its more Zhang fault for misreading the shot than Rose credit for throwing a wonderful shoot out of nowhere, the kick was not even fast or powerfull, just correctly executed, Zhang just give her head, made a huge mistake

Usman and Jiri KO are way more impressive

Discuss

115 women kos are very rare, so it is special

 

[Sanserif]

I did not mean to detract from Rose's win because it was specatacular and showed her power, timing, and preparation.

But here is my point:

Do you believe that Rose would KO Weili like that 9/10 times? If not, then there must be a certain amount of luck going into it.

On the other hand, we saw conclusively that Holloway would beat Kattar at least 9/10 times. Anderson Silva would beat Forrest Griffin at least 9/10 times. GSP would beat Dan Hardy at least 9/10 times. Couture would beat Tim Sylvia at least 9/10 times...etc.

Do you see how there is a difference in these matchups in terms of how much luck is involved? When we can accurately gauge the skill level and the skill gap of the two contenders, that is where we can put our foot down and say "no, luck has nothing to do with the win."

In the case of Rose/Weili and Conor/Aldo, I just don't see how this is the case.

In answer to your query i don't believe in "luck" first of all. Like sun tzu said te victory goes to the one who does not make a mistake. So the fighter who lakes more mistakes in any given fight has the higher chance of losing it. If he ir she makes a mistake that is fatal to the fight e.g getting caught ina trap that is planned for him or her h the opponent- then there is a higher probability of a ko or submission or choke.

The inherent flaw in zhang's technique was spotted by namajunas' team and she was programmed to repeat it. Hence even if this fight were rewound again like groundhog day but without zhang remembering the previous times of course- she would veyr likely fall for the same feint again if namajhnas set it up the same way. In other words it was a systemic flaw that would have gotten her either knocked out every time if the kick is of the same quality or at least rocked so as to degrade her performance in the fight to give namajunas a n advantage.

 

[achoo42]

You have not explained why a knock out in the first round will necessarily contain more "luck" than a drawn out 3 to 5 round fight. Both involve the successful application of skill and coaching and planning and training to the problem of overcoming an opponent. The only difference is that in the case of a knock out like namajunas' on zhang, the execution of the planned move was so perfect that it led to the immediate incapacitating of the opponent. So the difference is in fact that the ko involves greater skill quotient than the drawn out fight.

Because if the opponent had their chin at a slightly different tilt, or an inch in the other direction, the KO may not have happened. That's the lucky part of it.

In a 3-5 round war, there is much less luck involved.

If you land more hits, you're likely the better fighter in terms of speed/timing.

If your opponent gases before you, you're likely the better fighter in terms of conditioning.

But if you knock your opponent out in the first minute, what can we objectively gauge in terms of a fighter's attributes? Unless the KO would happen 9/10 times (which is possible with certain fighters, especially heavyweights) we can't draw much of anything from the fight other than specific ways that the winner manipulated the opponent's gameplan (Askren v Masvidal, Goodridge v Herrera also come to mind).

No one is out there wanting for Khabib to rematch Abel Trujillo because we saw enough of either fighter that we'd know the result every time. But people still debate about Prime Aldo vs Prime Conor. GSP came back and wiped out Matt Serra in the rematch. Insta KOs mean something but they often don't mean as much as people would like them to.

 

[karatefoo]

She split Zhang's guard and KO'd her with her lead leg which has less power. The timing and accuracy on that kick was flawless because Zhang didn't see it coming and people like you still find ways to shit on it.

Well technically she loaded up when she stepped her lead foot to her rear foot.

 

[achoo42]

In answer to your query i don't believe in "luck" first of all. Like sun tzu said te victory goes to the one who does not make a mistake. So the fighter who lakes more mistakes in any given fight has the higher chance of losing it. If he ir she makes a mistake that is fatal to the fight e.g getting caught ina trap that is planned for him or her h the opponent- then there is a higher probability of a ko or submission or choke.

The inherent flaw in zhang's technique was spotted by namajunas' team and she was programmed to repeat it. Hence even if this fight were rewound again like groundhog day but without zhang remembering the previous times of course- she would veyr likely fall for the same feint again if namajhnas set it up the same way. In other words it was a systemic flaw that would have gotten her either knocked out every time if the kick is of the same quality or at least rocked so as to degrade her performance in the fight to give namajunas a n advantage.

I just don't think that's true. Even Rose, as powerful as she is, does not have guaranteed 1 hit KO power. They are strawweights. Even Ngannou doesn't have that kind of guaranteed power.

A large part of the luck factor is hitting the chin just right. If Weili's head is an inch to the left or at a slightly different angle, who knows if it would have done the damage it did?

If you've hard sparred before, then you understand that some shots simply do more damage than others despite being thrown with equal or even less power. It depends on where the opponent is and if the impact is in the sweet spot.

Part of that is precision/timing, and part of that is luck.