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Seoi-nage (the masterclass throw)
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What is the tai sabaki and kuzushi for this throw?
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While I could give you more technical answers, basically create an opening to get your hips across, turn in, pull like hell. The hard part is creating an opening such that uke can't just step around your throw.
I'll break it down for you in four easy steps:
1) Be born
2) Be named Koga Toshihiko
3) ??????
4) SEOI NAGE!
In seoinage, you throw down, not lift. If you lift it's to help in the rotation of uke, and you don't lift his entire body weight.
In koshiki no kata there is a technique called "yukiore" which roughly describes the action of heavy snow sloughing off a branch.
Your job is to load uke on you (by pulling, not lifting), and throw him down like a sack of potatoes. For that you need uke leaning forward, with the shoulder side slightly more forward.
There are many ways you can enter, videos of which you can find, so I won't type them out.
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Bwahaha! Very true.
The guys who are good at seoi nage all seem to have one trait .... they get stupidly deep under that arm and they pull on it like it was the ladder to heaven, their lifeline out of hell.
They will also often give up their backs or necks in the process of furiously pulling to finish, which isn't a big deal in judo, but sucks balls for most grappling.
Rodolfo Vieira has the best seoi nage I've seen for BJJ, it's very different than classic judo though.
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the one that rodolfo does is morote seoi nage right?
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as a tall guy i can't just pull people forward and over me. i uppercut the shit out of their arm, like trying to put on a heavy backpack. it's a lot more difficult to put that backpack on with straight legs, and if i'm just pulling forward i have to get unrealistically low.
for whatever reason, uchikomi ruin this throw for a lot of people. i think habitually stopping at the apex causes a lack of continuity, so a lot of people 'stick' in the load phase because they aren't throwing 'through' it.
i really dig the skill cues in this video
especially the part about timing it off of the snapdown. if they're fighting to reestablish the posture, they're almost jumping into the throw.
for whatever reason, uchikomi ruin this throw for a lot of people. i think habitually stopping at the apex causes a lack of continuity, so a lot of people 'stick' in the load phase because they aren't throwing 'through' it.
i really dig the skill cues in this video
especially the part about timing it off of the snapdown. if they're fighting to reestablish the posture, they're almost jumping into the throw.
Rodolfo has adapted the throw to his needs very well. He is tall, so entering at the hips wouldn't work for him. It would also risk him giving the back. So he drags uke down and throws off to the side a bit. It also means that he doesn't have to close the distance against stiff arming and bent over BJJ players. All told, a higher success rate, less accuracy needed, and less risk. It's not an ippon-maker but it works for the ground fighter.
Saulo Ribeiro also does this, so it's either a BJJ thing or a common direction they head towards when faced with the same problem. He caught me with it before since I did not expect it to work, but his weight was enough to drag me down. I probably could have spun out in a Judo situation, but it was just a dojo visit.
Saulo Ribeiro also does this, so it's either a BJJ thing or a common direction they head towards when faced with the same problem. He caught me with it before since I did not expect it to work, but his weight was enough to drag me down. I probably could have spun out in a Judo situation, but it was just a dojo visit.
Think more like running straight off a cliff, and less like apex, and you won't have that problem with uchikomi. You're trying to lift. A lot of tall people do that (myself included) to try to compensate, and it works at times because your legs are strong, but it's a hard way to go.
At some point, it makes sense to do another technique. It's like short people trying to do "hip" uchimata. At some point you might as well do a damn hip throw.
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i don't think of it as a dropoff so much as an arc, but i don't throw uke around me, i launch them over.
drop seoi nage i can just pull forward and down, but to replicate that same kazushi on someone while standing means getting down into an unrealistic squat.
i like the lift i get on my seoi nage. it's really hard countering a throw in mid air
drop seoi nage i can just pull forward and down, but to replicate that same kazushi on someone while standing means getting down into an unrealistic squat.
i like the lift i get on my seoi nage. it's really hard countering a throw in mid air
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Rodolfo is also perfectly happy if you land face down or on your side, as long as he ends up on top. Like you say it's much more dragging down than throwing over the hips.
i don't think of it as a dropoff so much as an arc, but i don't throw uke around me, i launch them over.
drop seoi nage i can just pull forward and down, but to replicate that same kazushi on someone while standing means getting down into an unrealistic squat.
i like the lift i get on my seoi nage. it's really hard countering a throw in mid air
Yup, I know what you mean. A long time ago I did seoi that way, and I was able to overpower many by lifting. Now I gas easy by age and my back is broken by a 375 pound Japanese ... high school student ... whose belly fit right into the curve of my back. He blocked my seoi attempt with a hip check, and crack went my back. Luckily he was a gentle giant and knew I was hurt, and stuck. If he landed on me while I was stuck bent backwards I probably would have been paralyzed. I think it was only a minor sprain but my back never felt tight again.
Now that I'm old I would never want to attack without proper kuzushi.
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Yuki-ore is much more seoi otoshi than it is seoi nage. I'm not sure it's the best comparison, or description of seoi nage.
After the initial kuzushi, which I agree should be straight forward rather than lifting, I would suggest that your hikite will move almost entirely in a downward motion, while tsurite creates a graceful arch, first up and then down. In conjunction and opposition of the upper body, the lower body first lowers and then lifts. The overall motion of the total body is, in my opinion, a very smooth arching, circular motion.
Koga, who has arguably the best competitive seoi ever, lifts with his seoi. Again, the difference between what is traditionally taught and what works in competition.
If he didn't train to lift, several of those opponents would never have gone over.
I taught seoi off a snapdown to every guy who came to my club and had a knack for seoi. If you can time it right, it's the best feeling ever. I have a video of me somewhere throwing it during randori after teaching it. I wonder if I can find it. I also like to throw eri seoi as my opponent breaks my sleeve grip. They snap out, yanking their elbow back, and as soon as they do I attack the other arm. It works pretty well, considering seoi is not a throw that I spent a lot of time focusing on.
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I brought up yukiore to describe the position preceding the throwing action.
When I say lift, I mean carry uke's complete weight and do seoi almost like a hip throw. That is an error. Koga does not carry uke's weight in that video unless he was forced to adjust, like when uke unexpectedly dropped his body. Many of the throws in that video have him simply throwing down. Koga is very short for his category so he hardly needed to or had the chance to lift. He did often hip snap, but that is not quite the same thing I was referring to.
In any case, it's quite a leap from having to adjust a technique and actually going for it from the start thus calling it a "competition version". In that video, Koga himself teaches the textbook version.
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Maybe you could expand on the yoki-ore bit? The descriptor in the post I quoted sounded more as if it were talking about kake. I'm having a hard time understanding how "sloughing off a branch" applies to the position preceding the throw action.
"Back carry", or "carry on back" are reasonable translations for seoi nage, and loading uke on your back/shoulder is fundamentally what separates seoi nage from seoi otoshi. If uke is loaded, I'd suggest that you are carrying uke's weight, if only for a moment. If you're not carrying uke's weight, you're probably throwing seoi otoshi.
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're trying to say.
I probably should have used another example that would be clearer. I mean that for seoinage and to some extend seoi otoshi, you want uke so heavily over you that if you were gone he'd fall over. Then, throwing him down is easy. If for a moment you are carrying his weight is one thing, but actually lifting him up there is another. Work = force * distance. It's a lot easier to statically hold a weight than it is to move it. Behold, the stiff arm.
When you do use your hips in seoi, you are snapping him at the same time you pull down. It is like rotating a see saw, rather than just lifting. You don't lift much weight doing that.
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The throw looks sick as fuck. It's a bit out of my skill range at the moment though, lol
