SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 123 - Stalker

Now this is nothing more than an artistic failing on Tarkovsky's part. Stalker is one of the most desperate films that I've ever seen. I didn't use the word "despair" by accident. Did Stalker "bring hope and belief" to anyone? Does anyone buy that Stalker "masters" his "moments of despair"?
I’m with moreorless87 about this. I find the ending very uplifting and I love movies that don’t just lure you with easy artistic solutions to right conclusions on matters that are complex. Stalker has idealistic burn out, but has his family to return to. His daughter is proof, that he’s not just some loonie. The imagery is grimm or ambivalent at best, but emotional landscape with wife’s monologue, the poem and daughter’s gift is full of hope.
 
I haven't read the source material for either Solaris or Stalker, but I know that Tarkovsky hated actual genre filmmaking and had zero interest in actual sci-fi storytelling in both cases (@Rimbaud82, you got any quotes from Tarkovsky bitching about having to waste time on the sci-fi aspects of Solaris? I'm remembering those lamentations but I don't remember what he actually had to say). So I think that it's safe to assume that it's his fuck up and that Roadside Picnic is a hell of a lot more explicit and coherent on the narrative level.

As I keep saying: Narrative is just a necessary evil for Tarkovsky to play with his cameras and that always shows through in his poor and sloppy narratives.

I do remember this bit:

Interview with Tarkovsky conducted by Zbigniew Podgórzec in 1973 said:
Why, in a film which could be categorized as science fiction, are you more concerned with the drama of the hero's conscience than with the dramatic situation in the space station?

When I read Lem's novel, what struck me above all were the moral problems evident in the relationship between Kelvin and his conscience, as manifested in the form of Hari. In fact if I understood, and greatly admired, the second half of the novel — the technology, the atmosphere of the space station, the scientific questions — it was entirely because of that situation, which seems to me to be fundamental to the work. Inner, hidden, human problems, moral problems, always engage me far more than any questions of technology; and in any case technology, and how it develops, invariably relates to moral issues, in the end that is what it rests upon. My prime sources are always the real state of the human soul, and the conflicts that are expressed in spiritual problems. And so I paid more attention to that side of things in my film, even though I did so unconsciously. It was an organic process of selection. I didn't erase the rest, but it somehow became more muted than the things that interested me most.

But I also vaguely remember some actual bitching as well.
 
Not read the novel but looking at a synopsis the film really is vastly different to it, following(well pre dating) in the tradition of films like Blade Runner or more recently Under The Skin in stripping away some complexity of plot and technical details to instead focus more on tone/drama.

The idea that sci fi must delve deeply into technical details to be "real" seems highly questionable to me, really the greatest appeal of the genre has always I'd say been that it allows some kind of contrivance that throws a moral/social/political issue the writer/film maker wants to examine into much sharper relief.

In this case whilst the zone is unexplained the story does show us how a future society has reacted to its presence.
 
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Way late to the game but watching the movie now. Will be back with thoughts in 3 hours.
 
Btw now is as good a time as any to say that I would like to rejoin the club now I have submitted my diss I am a man of leisure for the most part <Goldie11>
 
NOTE to NON-MEMBERS: Interested in joining the SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB? Shoot me a PM for more info!

Here's a quick list of all movies watched by the SMC. Or if you prefer, here's a more detailed examination.

jei's Note: Like the Week 124 vote thread, this is a temporary stopgap to help out. I'm not the Captain now.

Stalker (1979)

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Our Director
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Andrei Tarkovsky
Andrei Arsenyevich Tarkovsky (Russian: Андре́й Арсе́ньевич Тарко́вский, IPA: [ɐnˈdrʲej ɐrˈsʲenʲjɪvʲɪtɕ tɐrˈkofskʲɪj]; 4 April 1932 – 29 December 1986) was a Russian filmmaker, writer, film editor, film theorist, theatre and opera director.

Tarkovsky's films include Ivan's Childhood (1962), Andrei Rublev (1966), Solaris (1972), Mirror (1975), and Stalker (1979). He directed the first five of his seven feature films in the Soviet Union; his last two films, Nostalghia (1983) and The Sacrifice (1986), were produced in Italy and Sweden, respectively. His work is characterized by long takes, unconventional dramatic structure, distinctly authored use of cinematography, and spiritual and metaphysical themes.

Tarkovsky's works Andrei Rublev, Solaris, Mirror, and Stalker are regularly listed among the greatest films of all time. His contribution to cinema was so influential that works done in a similar way are described as Tarkovskian. Ingmar Bergman said of him:

"Tarkovsky for me is the greatest (director), the one who invented a new language, true to the nature of film, as it captures life as a reflection, life as a dream."

Contrarily, however, Bergman conceded the truth in the claim made by a critic who wrote that "with Autumn Sonata Bergman does Bergman", adding, "Tarkovsky began to make Tarkovsky films, and that Fellini began to make Fellini films [...] Buñuel nearly always made Buñuel films."


Our Star
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Alexander Kaidanovsky

Film Overview: It's the 192 ranked movie of all time on IMDB, with a 8.1 score. Released in 1979, this Sci-Fi Drama lasts a svelte 2 hours and 42 minutes.
Premise: A guide leads two men through an area known as the Zone to find a room that grants wishes.
Budget: 1,000,000 Soviet Rubles
Box Office: ???


Trivia
(Courtesy of IMDB)
* According to the film's sound designer Vladimir Sharun, at least 3 members of the crew (including director Andrei Tarkovsky) died as a result of chemical contamination encountered on location in Estonia.

* The Zone of the film was inspired by a nuclear accident that took place near Chelyabinsk in 1957. Several hundred square kilometers were polluted by fallout and abandoned. There was no official mention of this "forbidden zone" at the time.

* This film averages a new camera shot every 88 seconds. It contains 142 shots in 163 minutes, with an average shot length of more than one minute and many shots lasting for more than four minutes.

* The film was initially shot on Kodak 5247 stock. This film stock was newer to Soviet laboratories of the time and some of the original negatives were destroyed by a processing error at the laboratory. Part of the film was shot again with a new cinematographer, Aleksandr Knyazhinskiy. This contributed to the film's two-part narrative structure.

* It is said that the rushes of the first version of the film were kept by editor Lyudmila Feyginova in her home for years. They were destroyed by a fire that also claimed her life.

* To allow changes to the color tone of a long strip of film over an extended take, director Andrei Tarkovsky built a long film processing vat which had different temperatures along the way.

* When the Stalker is referred to as 'Chingachgook' and 'Leatherstocking,' these are references to characters in James Fenimore Cooper's novel "The Last of the Mohicans."

* The poetry of Arseny Tarkovsky (father of director Andrei Tarkovsky) inspires much of this film.

* This film inspired video game developer GSC Game World to create STALKER:Shadow of Chernobyl. The game puts players into the role of a stalker who must navigate The Zone looking for answers to his amnesia.

* Towards the end of the movie, the Stalker's wife smokes cigarettes from a carton that bears the same AT (Andrei Tarkovsky) insignia as the policeman's helmet.

* The insignia on the police officers' helmet features two letters: AT, the initials of the director, Andrei Tarkovsky.

* Tarkovsky wanted to abandon further work on the film multiple times.

* The central part of the film, in which the characters travel within the Zone, was shot in a few days at two deserted hydro power plants on the Jägala river near Tallinn, Estonia.

I don't think this movie was over my head but maybe it was and maybe I just didn't get it. While watching multiple times I checked how much time was left and was shocked how much was left. That's a terrible sign. It did have minor parts I liked but I can't believe this is in the top 250 films on imdb. Yes it does have artistic qualities I liked but a movie is some form of entertainment and this movie have very little entertaining about it. I liked the switching between the yellow tinted film to regular color and what it seemed to symbolize at times but that's one of the few things I liked. I also somewhat liked the writer and his take on life. All of them had a depressing view on life but the writer was at least a little entertaining.



One thing I'm unsure on but pretty positive is nobody actually finds happiness in the room. The Stalker says he takes people to the room takes them home and never sees them again. He says it doesn't happen right away so he can't see it but they find happiness after. So dumb lol. The whole thing is nonsense and nothing matters basically. Yay! I'd give this shitty film a 3/10. A movie can be depressing and I'll like it but this was nonsense to me.
 
You'd probably find the rest of his work boring as well. He has his style. Nostalghia for example has like, iirc, a 9 minute, uninterrupted shot of a man trying to walk a candle from one end of an empty pool to the other without the flame blowing out

I think that'd make me blow my brains out. A ghost story had a 5 minute scene of a girl eating an entire pie and I wanted to kill the director.
 
Really it comes down to what you want out of an art form doesn't it? I mean you can have a very highly acclaimed 30 minute jazz solo that people can point out multiple strengths for yet if someone doesn't want to listen to it that's not going to matter to them. I don't really look down on anyone for not enjoying or wanting to get into a certain art form, there are plenty I don't either, you'd have to take me to an opera at gun point. Equally though I'm not going to spend time decrying faults in a certain opera to fans of it.
 
Really it comes down to what you want out of an art form doesn't it? I mean you can have a very highly acclaimed 30 minute jazz solo that people can point out multiple strengths for yet if someone doesn't want to listen to it that's not going to matter to them. I don't really look down on anyone for not enjoying or wanting to get into a certain art form, there are plenty I don't either, you'd have to take me to an opera at gun point. Equally though I'm not going to spend time decrying faults in a certain opera to fans of it.

Fair but we're in a movie club so even if the type of film isn't to our taste we are still supposed to discuss it. I wouldn't join an opera club so I'll never have to tell an opera fan that their favorite opera is shit. I can tell ya'll this movie is shit though.
 
but a movie is some form of entertainment and this movie have very little entertaining about it.

See this is where yours and Tarkovsky's views on the nature and purpose of cinema are most certainly not aligned :)
 
Except for all of Fincher's product placement and the movie merchandising.
The message must be seen by the masses! To accomplish that we have to make concessions to the corporate pigs we will later destroy.

To be precise, he says it's only after we've lost everything, not after we've given up everything. Giving up everything you have to get something else that you don't have is a matter of choice - or of free will, if you will. Losing everything that you have is not. That's the sticking point in that idiot philosophy.

Added to which, if the restrictions are of our own making, then what sense does the concept of loss have here anyway?
Nah, he's driving home the point that we allow ourselves to fall victim to commercialism, and think we need all this shit when we don't. It's like being a drunk, you have to hit rock bottom before you realize you need help.

In certain cases, perhaps. But it's certainly not axiomatic as some incisive indictment of life under capitalism :rolleyes:
Fair enough. Call it a cautionary tale.

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But to answer your question: Clearly free enough to set fire to everything you own, walk out on your job, and start your own rebel society.
Sure, but that's a shitty thing to do when you owe people, and most people feel obliged to stay in the prison of their own making to avoid the prison of another's. The idea is to be aware of the trap before you have to renege on your debts to get out of it.
 
Ultimately of course the message of Fight Club is that whilst the Tyler seems to make some points of substance he's just another form of selfish individualism, indeed I think he actually predicted the growing "alpha" mindset rather well.

In terms of wider politics in Stalker I wonder whether the seemingly small point we touched on earlier is actually quite significant, the idea of whether the setting is representative of the cold war or not. My feeling is that in both Solaris and Stalker its actually representative of a post cold war world with the presence of characters with western names and that really the target is modern society as a whole.
 
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It was tough to find a good copy of this film with english subtitles, but thanks to my local library, I was able to bust out the VHS portion of my combo DVD/VHS player and...well, here we go.

Like others, this tested my patience. Unlike some of those others, I never gave up on it. I think the main reason I rode it out was because I didn't think of this film as an actual story about these specific characters trying to go to this specific place because of these specific reasons. Instead, I thought of the environment in which Tarkovsky was trying to convey, the message/theme (which to me was Time, more specifically that no one can win a battle against time), and the general ideas we were supposed to follow. "Two men hire a third to bring them through a place of danger where they can get wishes granted" seems more allegorical than it does an actual storyline.

It's not really about the destination (which could be construed as the journey to find happiness) but instead about the journey of life itself. Now, did he do this on purpose? Hard to say, I couldn't even begin to figure out what he was driving at in his films, but it makes some sense to me. I had a professor in undergrad that wrote a book about a famous film interpreted as an allegory of economic principles, even though the film presumably had nothing to do with that. Nonetheless, his interpretation was fascinating, and one of my favorite books I read in undergrad.

Tarkovsky portrays two worlds - the first when they are at home and escaping and journeying through the military blockade, which is a bleak and lifeless world. Everything is in a state of ruin, whether it be the buildings, the area, or the people themselves. In the second, the Zone (which I'll probably end up calling the 'Danger Zone') is a lot more mysterious and interesting. We get our first shot of color when they are on that little trolley for what seemed like an hour, and it's there that things come to life. All the green, contrasted against the shrapnel and wreckage. It's quiet, but it's a better kind of quiet than the ruined city.

One was a warzone, the other a nuclear warzone - now, which one was better? At least they have hope in the Danger Zone, compared to home when it's just "I threw my life away to be with you" and sadness and squalor. Is that a challenge to the boring daily routine that most people have, the slog of waking up, going to work, coming home, eating, and giving up? When the three finally get out to the Danger Zone, they don't really know what to do. Sure, the Stalker knows where to take them, but one of them wants to be alone as they just look around. It's the moment of clarity some people get when they realize they've been living a life they don't necessarily want. It's amazing to them, but the Stalker just starts going to work making those trapcatchers, since this is just a job for him after all. It's not that special to him, and he knows how dangerous things will be going forward.

Something that stuck out to me was that one of the two lamented repeatedly that although it was beautiful in the zone, he couldn't smell the flowers. Does that mean that the Danger Zone was only the illusion of beauty? We know it doesn't really abide by the laws of reality so I guess it could also be interpreted as such instead.

It's strange, for as much as I had to say about Part 1, I have the opposite to say about Part 2. It was already slow and ground to a halt, especially with the writer's scene on the lake. Even though it drags, like the long camera pans along basically everything, I'm not sure what I would cut. Taking half of the long pans out would seem arbitrary, especially since Tarkovsky wants the audience to see the world around them as it changes from color to sepia and back. He really loves those painfully long takes where we see a character do nothing besides slowly sit up and look around, or slowly plodding through a tunnel banging into every single object that makes a sound. I won't sugar coat it, at times it was agonizing.

The writer does have a profound moment, although it's a bit of a breakdown, when he asks "what the hell kind of writer am I if I hate writing?" Well, then you're a true writer. I can't imagine too many writers that haven't felt this exact pain before, knowing that you write hoping to change or influence or educate people, only to find that it is you that have changed. It's pretty heavy and I identify with it.

I'm a little torn on the motivations for each man to go to the Danger Zone to make their wishes come true. The Professor wants to destroy it, although maybe he hopes for fame and praise when he does it (that could be just a cover). The Stalker seems to want to make others' dreams come true, and he doesn't want anything for himself. Although, it's possible the Stalker doesn't even want anything at all, because he doesn't want to go in the Room. Meanwhile, the Writer, what does he want. Fame? Fortune? To write something that will be remembered for ever, and hopes that he can draw some inspiration from the Danger Zone? Or is it just the imaginary Macguffin everyone seeks?

Why did the Writer put on the crown of thorns, and more importantly, where did he find it? Did he make it by himself this whole time, and if so, what's the motivation to do so? Does he paint himself as if he's Jesus, or some kind of martyr risking it all for art? Whatever it may be, the Stalker was not a fan of it, and it fell flat on me too. It was too obvious and forced of a reference, whatever kind it was. And we go right from sacrifice to the Professor revealing that he has a 20 kiloton nuke, no big deal, he's been just bumping around with it for the whole trip. I think we'd need to be more careful of a nuke falling into the wrong hands than the Danger Zone, considering how almost everyone fears and avoids it.

After all their troubles, the men decide not to go enter the Room, and when they make the decision, the color changes once again back to the original color scheme. They have given up and plan to go back to their old lives. And then the rain falls, and just as soon as it starts, it stops. That would have been the perfect time to end the film. I think that's what I would cut out of it, everything after that scene. I also don't think it needed three and a half minutes to show them sitting there.

They threw a lot at us in this unnecessary final sequence - the significance of the Black Dog following him home (death?) and also the wife's monologue fourth wall break to the audience where she ends up saying at least she's not alone as well the emergence/reveal/whatever of Кэрри.

That last one, I want to talk about more, and not the wife's monologue. I know the discussion has long since passed, but the daughter and her abilities I felt was worth pointing out, especially since it came completely out of nowhere. There were no other supernatural elements of this film, no magic or effects from radiation anything like that. There are a bunch of thoughts/interpretations I had, and all of them could be wrong. First, as a result of the obvious radiation that the Stalker suffered in multiple trips to the Danger Zone, she was a product of mutation. Second, the Stalker actually did go to the Zone once, and he wished for his family to be happy, and it resulted in that? Third, it was a red herring, made to just confuse and throw off the audience at the end to see if they were paying attention. Unless I'm mistaken, the daughter's telekinetic poetry scene was the only one filmed in color at home, so maybe she has a bright future far away that we'll never know anything about. We hear the dog whimpering while she does it, so I know there's more to it but everyone's done with this film so I'll leave it.

One last thing:


I feel weird about rating this film. I appreciate and acknowledge everything Tarkovsky did, even if I sound like I complained about it here and there. I will never watch this film again, and yet I feel very strongly about it. 9/10.
 
All the likes convinced me to go back to this thread.

Your point about the crown of thorns the writer finds Jei perhaps relates to something that came to mind watching the film a couple of weeks ago. The room the characters are in at that point has a lot of strange things within it such as the painkillers, the crown and indeed the working telephone. Not sure I'd agree with it myself as it would shift the intension of the film considerably but perhaps you could argue what we see is misdirection and this is actually THE room and the character don't even know it? I think you could argue professor gets his desire to speak to his hated colleague on the phone and rub his face in it, the other two? maybe the crown gives writer the messianic viewpoint he desires(I'd assume "the wandering jew" means either Jesus or Moses) but ultimately the wisdom to reject the nature of the zone? the Stalker maybe gets the rejection of his clients that results in him valuing the zone for itself and focusing on his family? Again I'm not sure I buy into that myself and perhaps you could say that the strange things within that room are just a smaller reflection of the actual room? giving some more limited desires perhaps?

As far as the dog goes I think its definitely drawing on the idea of such animals as supernatural forces, in this case I take it to mean a reflection that something of the nature of the zone has followed the Stalker home previewing what we see with his daughter afterwards.
 
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