Crime Special counsel charges FBI informant with lying to the bureau about Hunter and Joe Biden

Voodoo_Child906 said:
LOL so you think Joe called Obama and asked him to have his back while he took care of some business in Ukraine? Really? You think that's how our government works? What it actually means, is that Joe was the messenger for the policy of the Obama Administration. The EU was calling for Shokin to be removed:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...-ukraine-s-prosecutor-viktor-shokin-1.2591190

Our own bi-partisan congressional Ukraine caucus wanted him removed:

https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/116415/documents/HHRG-118-GO00-20230928-SD024.pdf

So the Obama administration sent Joe to Ukraine as the point man.
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No, I think Joe knew Obama would have his back without a phone call. It would be disastrous for the administration if Obama didn't have his back.

Whats funny is you guys believe the aid was approved and then at some point Obama decided it wasn't going to be distributed until this guy got fired. He didn't put it writing or make it official in any capacity. Instead he tapped Joe on the shoulder and told him to fly to Ukraine and surprise them with an ultimatum. You think that's how our government works?

Edit BTW - here is the original list of conditions for the aid - https://justthenews.com/sites/default/files/2023-08/Nov2015LoanGuaranteeConditionsIPC.pdf. You'll notice it says nothing about the prosecutor.
 
Mr Holmes said:
No, I think Joe knew Obama would have his back without a phone call. It would be disastrous for the administration if Obama didn't have his back.

Whats funny is you guys believe the aid was approved and then at some point Obama decided it wasn't going to be distributed until this guy got fired. He didn't put it writing or make it official in any capacity. Instead he tapped Joe on the shoulder and told him to fly to Ukraine and surprise them with an ultimatum. You think that's how our government works?
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I think you misunderstand how things work. Obama didn't have Joe's back. Obama had Obama's policy and expected Joe to follow through. Joe can say call the president because he knows that he's executing Obama's policy not his own.

If the VP is going to a foreign nation to talk with people, everyone in the executive branch knows it before he gets on a plane. And that means that the Executive Branch is going to tell him exactly what the limitations are, what he can and can't promise to. The Executive branch is going to talk with our allies and discuss our policy goals with them to see if we're in alignment.

Then, and only then, is the the VP of the United States going to be allowed to engage in high level talks with a foreign power.

No one can seriously believe that the VP went into a foreign nation and unilaterally made up his own policy goals for the entire nation. That's inane on a major level because it completely ignores how government and foreign policy works.
 
panamaican said:
I think you misunderstand how things work. Obama didn't have Joe's back. Obama had Obama's policy and expected Joe to follow through. Joe can say call the president because he knows that he's executing Obama's policy not his own.

If the VP is going to a foreign nation to talk with people, everyone in the executive branch knows it before he gets on a plane. And that means that the Executive Branch is going to tell him exactly what the limitations are, what he can and can't promise to. The Executive branch is going to talk with our allies and discuss our policy goals with them to see if we're in alignment.

Then, and only then, is the the VP of the United States going to be allowed to engage in high level talks with a foreign power.

No one can seriously believe that the VP went into a foreign nation and unilaterally made up his own policy goals for the entire nation. That's inane on a major level because it completely ignores how government and foreign policy works.
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Ok, so you believe the goofy 2nd scenario I pointed out. Biden is the #2 in the executive branch. So yes, I'm sure Biden approved his own statements and the new condition he set.
 
Mr Holmes said:
No, I think Joe knew Obama would have his back without a phone call. It would be disastrous for the administration if Obama didn't have his back.

Whats funny is you guys believe the aid was approved and then at some point Obama decided it wasn't going to be distributed until this guy got fired. He didn't put it writing or make it official in any capacity. Instead he tapped Joe on the shoulder and told him to fly to Ukraine and surprise them with an ultimatum. You think that's how our government works?

Edit BTW - here is the original list of conditions for the aid - https://justthenews.com/sites/default/files/2023-08/Nov2015LoanGuaranteeConditionsIPC.pdf. You'll notice it says nothing about the prosecutor.
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Didn't Trump try and do this when he asked for a an investigation announcement in return for Congressional aid to be released? The difference is that Trump didn't have the backing of the EU and our Congressional Ukraine Caucus when he was in talks.
 
Mr Holmes said:
Ok, so you believe the goofy 2nd scenario I pointed out. Biden is the #2 in the executive branch. So yes, I'm sure Biden approved his own statements and the new condition he set.
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Of course you're sure of this, it's the only way the Joe Biden, International Crime Lord narrative can work. No evidence required if you already have a conclusion in mind. Just need to create a story that fits. It's not going to be enough for an impeachment, though. At least you have the right to not vote for the guy.
 
Voodoo_Child906 said:
Didn't Trump try and do this when he asked for a an investigation announcement in return for Congressional aid to be released? The difference is that Trump didn't have the backing of the EU and our Congressional Ukraine Caucus when he was in talks.
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You're really going to pull the "its okay for Biden to do it because Trump did it" card? Considering Trump as impeached for it, you're only proving my point. And a letter signed by a few senators after the aid was already approved and conditions were already set doesn't change things.
 
sickc0d3r said:
Of course you're sure of this, it's the only way the Joe Biden, International Crime Lord narrative can work. No evidence required if you already have a conclusion in mind. Just need to create a story that fits. It's not going to be enough for an impeachment, though. At least you have the right to not vote for the guy.
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Okay, where is the evidence Obama told him to lay out the new conditions? Why wasn't it in the original set of conditions established a few months before the visit?
 
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Mr Holmes said:
You're really going to pull the "its okay for Biden to do it because Trump did it" card? Considering Trump as impeached for it, you're only proving my point. And a letter signed by a few senators after the aid was already approved and conditions were already set doesn't change things.
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No, once again, it wasn't Biden that did it. Congressional aid can be withheld by the Executive, and who is the head of the Executive, that's right, the President. The Vice President's role is primarily advisory, and they do not have the direct authority to unilaterally withhold or release funds like the President. And yes, the backing from the BI-PARTISAN congressional Ukraine caucus and our allies in the EU gave Obama the support to withhold the aid. Trump had no such backing.
 
Mr Holmes said:
Ok, so you believe the goofy 2nd scenario I pointed out. Biden is the #2 in the executive branch. So yes, I'm sure Biden approved his own statements and the new condition he set.
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You seem to be purposely ignoring the historical context that many were asking for the removal of the prosecutor to act as though Biden unilaterally demanded it. Why do you continue to ignore that the EU and congress wanted Shokin removed?
 
Mr Holmes said:
Okay, where is the evidence he told to lay out the new conditions? Why wasn't it in the original set of conditions established a few months before the visit?
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You're making the claim, you can provide the evidence. Surely the conversation was a matter of record, did anyone in congress object to the condition of firing Shokin?
 
sickc0d3r said:
You're making the claim, you can provide the evidence. Surely the conversation was a matter of record, did anyone in congress object to the condition of firing Shokin?
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I'm addressing unproven claims that Obama ordered Biden to present the new condition. All we know is Biden gave the ultimatum. We know this because he foolishly bragged about it on video. I'm not sure if anyone objected to it, but there's no shortage of critics pointing out how it doesn't look great.
 
Mr Holmes said:
I'm addressing unproven claims that Obama ordered Biden to present the new condition. All we know is Biden gave the ultimatum. We know this because he foolishly bragged about it on video. I'm not sure if anyone objected to it, but there's no shortage of critics pointing out how it doesn't look great.
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It's a huge stretch to believe he acted on his own without having previously discussed the various scenarios with Obama and Kupchan, and the idea of using aid as leverage to oust Shokin would be one of them. Otherwise, he would not have done it.
Everybody wanted Shokin out of there. Kupchan even said "He leveraged $1 billion in aid as a stick to move Ukraine forward. He was acting alongside our European allies. Everybody was of a single mind that this prosecutor was not the right guy for the job.".
I think there's almost no chance this wasn't part of an agreed strategy. The only assumption you could make with any confidence is that Joe would have had a lot of input in those discussions.
 
Voodoo_Child906 said:
No, once again, it wasn't Biden that did it. Congressional aid can be withheld by the Executive, and who is the head of the Executive, that's right, the President. The Vice President's role is primarily advisory, and they do not have the direct authority to unilaterally withhold or release funds like the President. And yes, the backing from the BI-PARTISAN congressional Ukraine caucus and our allies in the EU gave Obama the support to withhold the aid. Trump had no such backing.
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Daveb said:
You seem to be purposely ignoring the historical context that many were asking for the removal of the prosecutor to act as though Biden unilaterally demanded it. Why do you continue to ignore that the EU and congress wanted Shokin removed?
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I've already addressed this. Biden is #2 in the executive. He's not just some powerless messenger boy. A letter from some senators helps him a little but doesn't explain why the aid was approved if it was so important. Nor does it explain why it wasn't in the list of conditions written just a few months before the trip. US policy is US policy and not the EU's policy.
 
sickc0d3r said:
It's a huge stretch to believe he acted on his own without having previously discussed the various scenarios with Obama and Kupchan, and the idea of using aid as leverage to oust Shokin would be one of them. Otherwise, he would not have done it.
Everybody wanted Shokin out of there. Kupchan even said "He leveraged $1 billion in aid as a stick to move Ukraine forward. He was acting alongside our European allies. Everybody was of a single mind that this prosecutor was not the right guy for the job.".
I think there's almost no chance this wasn't part of an agreed strategy. The only assumption you could make with any confidence is that Joe would have had a lot of input in those discussions.
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Its certainly possible that Obama was fully on board or even ordered it, but I also think its possible that Joe made the call himself. Joe sure makes it sound like it was his call when he recalled the events. The truth might be somewhere in the middle. I find it a bit questionable that Obama and his people didn't see the problems of sending Joe to surprise them with the new condition considering the optics of a conflict of interest.

I think all this talk about the VP being some sort of spokesperson with out any authority is rubbish.
 
Mr Holmes said:
I've already addressed this. Biden is #2 in the executive. He's not just some powerless messenger boy. A letter from some senators helps him a little but doesn't explain why the aid was approved if it was so important. Nor does it explain why it wasn't in the list of conditions written just a few months before the trip. US policy is US policy and not the EU's policy.
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Does the VP the power to unilaterally withhold congressionally backed aid?
 
Mr Holmes said:
Ok, so you believe the goofy 2nd scenario I pointed out. Biden is the #2 in the executive branch. So yes, I'm sure Biden approved his own statements and the new condition he set.
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Uhm, that 2nd scenario is exactly how it works. The funds are approved by Congress but the executive branch handles foreign policy and the timing of that execution. So, yes, Obama can tap Joe on the shoulder, after consulting with his various administrative heads and our allies, and tell Joe "Let them know that this money doesn't get released unless we see X, Y and Z. If they don't, we'll have so many complications and administrative paperwork that it will be 40 years before we cut the 1st check."

That's what backroom international politics looks like. Shit, it's what backroom politics looks like in almost every situation. You have the laws that are approved and then you have the deals that happen so that execution of the laws happens quickly or slowly or so that Person A benefits or Person B benefits.

That's the game that the executive branch gets to play, whether it's the White House, a governor or a mayor. It's the game the CEO of a company gets to play when the board of directors gives him orders.

So, Joe isn't throwing out his own statements or ideas and trusting Obama to back him. He's doing what Obama wants and can flex hard because he knows this.
 
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