Systema -"A Phd for those with batchelors, you're talking to guys who haven't graduated high school"

[TheMaster]

That means majority of this site and alot in the wider mma community.

The words of wolfman...a guy with more experience than 99% of guys here.
So heres the thing, the art is widely trashed by people here who are largely low-medium level martial artists or without much fight experience or who dont even train.
Thus the issue of systema's legitimacy shows the true mismatch between reality and peoples perception of it, especially here.

Is there bad systema? Yes. Can u tar it all with one brush? No.

I have long had an interest in systema principles, since I believe it to be an evolved version of internal kungfu arts such as tai chi and wing chun as well as soft arts like aikido...some of movements, contact sensitivity and principles are exactly the same.
The Russians are known to have widely studied asian fighting arts after the war and combined with science of body mechanics leading to creation of sambo and systema.


3:00
George Pogocich
"The last guy I would ever want to fight to the death" - Wolfman



with Wolfman



He can comment later since he trained with the guy.

Good level systema (and you can add some high level chinese internal arts because it is basically a modified or developed version) is real and legit
Another popular mma myth dissolves.

 

[Mr Mojo Lane]

Obviously. They don't know the difference between your and you're

 

[Russky]

The Russians are known to have widely studied asian fighting arts after the war and combined with science of body mechanics leading to creation of sambo and systema.

Systema is not Russian art. This is purely Western marketing brand.

 

[maximus__]

That means majority of this site and alot in the wider mma community.

The words of wolfman...a guy with more experience than 99% of guys here.
So heres the thing, the art is widely trashed by people here who are largely low-medium level martial artists or without much fight experience.
Thus the issue of systema's legitimacy shows the true mismatch between reality and peoples perception of it, especially here.

Is there bad systema? Yes. Can u tar it all with one brush? No.

I have long had an interest in systema principles, since I believe it to be an evolved version of internal kungfu arts such as tai chi and wing chun as well as soft arts like aikido...some of movements, contact sensitivity and principles are exactly the same.
The Russians are known to have widely studied asian fighting arts after the war and combined with science of body mechanics leading to creation of sambo and systema.


3:00
Roger Pogocich
"The last guy I would ever want to fight to the death" - Wolfman



with Wolfman



He can comment later since he trained with the guy.

Good level systema (and you can add high level chinese internal arts because it is basically a modified or developed version) is real and legit
Another popular mma myth dissolves.

If these systems are so effective why do these guy training on old ghetto mats in garages not come into high level mma and show their skills?

I can’t think of a better way to get students and prove your system works.

Mma isn’t a perfect rule set but it’s the best we have to show what works and what doesn’t. No one has been impressed with choreographed highlight vids since UFC 1.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

If these systems are so effective why do these guy training on old ghetto mats in garages not come into high level mma and show their skills?

I can’t think of a better way to get students and prove your system works.

Mma isn’t a perfect rule set but it’s the best we have to show what works and what doesn’t. No one has been impressed with choreographed highlight vids since UFC 1.

you gotta be one dumb fucker to think systems actually works

 

[TheMaster]

Systema is not Russian art. This is purely Western marketing brand.

Do u know how it is viewed in Russia? Regardless it is a distillation and refinement of internal arts.

Another good sparring vid here from wolfbro

 

[babycart]

Do u know how it is viewed in Russia? Regardless it is a distillation and refinement of internal arts.

Another good sparring vid here from wolfbro

Not impressed. Systema prides itself in hitting hard. A good boxer still rocks his sparring partner even with his not-full power punches blocked. Never seen that on this vid.

 

[Russky]

Do u know how it is viewed in Russia?

As complete and utter garbage.

Here's the Systema history presented on their web site: https://russianmartialart.com/whatis.php
It is completely fake and has nothing to do with real martial arts history in USSR and Russia.

Their "Master" https://russianmartialart.com/founders.php present himself as Colonel who worked for Prosecutor General office with medals and awards.
However, there is no information on any government sites about him. He is fake. Here are the links: https://hanmooye.livejournal.com/19067.html (Google translate is your friend).

There are only two authentic martial arts coming from Russia - Sambo and Combat Sambo. Both are mainly based on Judo and Jiu-jitsu. If someone tells you about "Spetnaz training" they are selling you shit.

 

[TheMaster]

Here's the Systema history presented on their web site: https://russianmartialart.com/whatis.php
It is completely fake and has nothing to do with real martial arts history in USSR and Russia.

Their "Master" https://russianmartialart.com/founders.php present himself as Colonel who worked for Prosecutor General office with medals and awards.
However, there is no information on any government sites about him. He is fake. Here are the links: https://hanmooye.livejournal.com/19067.html (Google translate is your friend).

There are only two authentic martial arts coming from Russia - Sambo and Combat Sambo. Both are mainly based on Judo and Jiu-jitsu. If someone tells you about "Spetnaz training" they are selling you shit.

Then accordiing to you there is no 'authentic martial arts from Russia' since Sambo is as u mention basically Judo + wrestling.

We know that the Russians studied asian arts extensively in the early 20th century leading to creation of Sambo.

Systema is clearly the Russian expression of Chinese internal arts, whereas Sambo is their development of more Japanese influence.
Not unreasonable to see how this could happen and it is also obvious by seeing it in action where its influences are

http://systemahongkong.com/history/

I know the whole 'spetsnaz' thing is marketting, but not unique to systema. Even the Gracies and many aikido guys and others claim to have taught military or police combatives.
Plus it is not too much a stretch since sambo founders were also military and it was developed to aid militrary hand to hand. Systema would be a similar attempt at this.

Internal arts work, they just require a much higher level of proficiency to be effective but the principles and techniques are very applicable but not for everyone. My view is similar to wolfman, it is not the best as a base (stick to something like Judo) but once you have a solid foundation many systema principles of flow, sensitivity and relaxation can be effectively incorporated.

 

[DanTheWolfman.com]

Chinese you say? Some influence from Mongolia NE Russia perhaps but you give NO evidence to the conclusions and agenda you want for validating Chinese stuff.
But far more from Japan, seems no one here knows that one of the 3 pillars of Sambo was shot in the head for saying such, and can't put two and two together that his more relaxed efficient style having damaged arm, likely was more beneficial to not drawing attention with big movements in assassinations and what not. Certainly KGB couldn't have continued on with his side of things now could they? like stepping to trip someone in rythem into uncoming traffic, or very subtly putting a quick injection nodule into somebody's leg at a corner they just think a bug stung them or something and boom they dead heart attack or mercury poisoning or shit make a statement and U232 whatever.

 

[TheMaster]

Chinese you say? Some influence from Mongolia NE Russia perhaps but you give NO evidence to the conclusions and agenda you want for validating Chinese stuff.
But far more from Japan, seems no one here knows that one of the 3 pillars of Sambo was shot in the head for saying such, and can't put two and two together that his more relaxed efficient style having damaged arm, likely was more beneficial to not drawing attention with big movements in assassinations and what not. Certainly KGB couldn't have continued on with his side of things now could they? like stepping to trip someone in rythem into uncoming traffic, or very subtly putting a quick injection nodule into somebody's leg at a corner they just think a bug stung them or something and boom they dead heart attack or mercury poisoning or shit make a statement and U232 whatever.

History is sketchy so who knows, I had read somewhere that Ryabko had privately mentioned an influence of Chinese internal arts. It certainly looks to me the obvious influence and I also know of many systema instructors who joined after coming from an aikido or tai chi background which is not surprising. The guy you rave about Pogocich also mentioned has a diverse training background including being high level in some chinese internal arts. So lets not pretend he is solely 'systema'.

The premise of this thread which I agree with, is that systema has advanced training concepts for people already experienced in martial arts. And naturally if those arts are similarly 'soft', 'relaxed', efficient and based on contact sensitivity etc it should gel that much easier.

Your theory about one of sambo founders "not wanting to show Japanese influence so making more economic movements" seems equally shaky.
More likely Russian understanding of body mechanics combined with Japanese and Chinese influence led to an evolution.

But whatever, we can agree that at a high level it works. And it is clearly an "internal" art. What is unique to Chinese internal arts like tai chi and it seems also systema, is their major use of contact sensitivity flow training 'sticky hands' or 'push hands'.
Have never seen any other arts use this whether Thai, western, or Japanese (other than some aspects of filipino styles which have cma influence) except systema so IMO I see a clear similarity and it is my theory on CMA influence but I do not claim it is substantiated but I personally believe it to be true.

I am just glad to see someone who recognizes a high level of skill and efficiency in an internal art (whatever its speculated origin) that it widely dismisssed.

 

[DanTheWolfman.com]

History is sketchy so who knows, I had read somewhere that Ryabko had privately mentioned an influence of Chinese internal arts. It certainly looks to me the obvious influence and I also know of many systema instructors who joined after coming from an aikido or tai chi background which is not surprising. The guy you rave about Pogocich also mentioned has a diverse training background including being high level in some chinese internal arts. So lets not pretend he is solely 'systema'.

The premise of this thread which I agree with, is that systema has advanced training concepts for people already experienced in martial arts. And naturally if those arts are similarly 'soft', 'relaxed', efficient and based on contact sensitivity etc it should gel that much easier.

Your theory about one of sambo founders "not wanting to show Japanese influence so making more economic movements" seems equally shaky.
I DIDN'T say that, I said because of his damage arm, he likely refined more efficient movements.


More likely Russian understanding of body mechanics combined with Japanese and Chinese influence led to an evolution.

But whatever, we can agree that at a high level it works. And it is clearly an "internal" art. What is unique to Chinese internal arts like tai chi and it seems also systema, is their major use of contact sensitivity flow training 'sticky hands' or 'push hands'.
Have never seen any other arts use this whether Thai, western, or Japanese (other than some aspects of filipino styles which have cma influence) except systema so IMO I see a clear similarity and it is my theory on CMA influence but I do not claim it is substantiated but I personally believe it to be true.

I am just glad to see someone who recognizes a high level of skill and efficiency in an internal art (whatever its speculated origin) that it widely dismisssed.

Well, Spiridonov wouldn't stop claiming he learned most in Japan, so they shot him in the head. He had a damaged arm, and I suspect the lighter side of Jujitsu he learned traveling in Japan came out because of this...the more subtle movement that was a pillar of Sambo and IMO became Systema likely funneled into KGB training. This is a pillar that people that claim Sambo is legit, seem to forget. Kado......claims links to Spridonov. Literal Rocket Scientist/physicist in charge of Rockets/ICBMs during COLD WAR so, there's that. And I've seen vids of hundreds in uniform to watch his demo's....if they didn't think it was legit to learn applied physics/bio-mechanics they wouldn't waste the time and man power.

Some Okinawan Karate and Shotokan have some push hands type things, though of course esp Okinawa some say Kara Te meant China Hand. Did what got to China go through India? What about Egypt? What about the Romans, and the Greeks before that?

As for skills, well, a big jiu-jitsu guy was getting real frustrated when he couldn't take me down because I was doing Chi Sao or holding one arm in structure in front of me blocking my centerline Sunday.

And I've pointed out doesn't matter what style, I see some old Chinese Tae Chi and Bagua guys that seem to have the real stuff....not many, but a few no matter what style.

If you have yet not watched my Real Aikido and my Distracting Hands and My Anti-Cage Tactics video it will give you more to study. Also the Best Systema Combatives Highlights video.

The 2 sparring ones are good for most people though because they can see some actual application that is more in your face and not as easy to dismiss, and it is not as hard to see as the very subtle stuff.

 

[SandisLL]

people that claim Sambo is legit

Nobody have necessity to " claim " or discuss about it.
SAMBO did had full contact tournaments before internet was created. The same real world like wrestling tournaments.
Yes, and was used for law enforcment before internet was created too.
With the same success anyone can discuss how legit boxing or wrestling is.

 

[DanTheWolfman.com]

Nobody have necessity to " claim " or discuss about it.
SAMBO did had full contact tournaments before internet was created. The same real world like wrestling tournaments.
Yes, and was used for law enforcment before internet was created too.
With the same success anyone can discuss how legit boxing or wrestling is.

This, this is what happens when you take things out of context..........

Perhaps you are in another country....and also I am tired writing at 330 am and should go to bed..I never suggested Sambo wasn't legit, I was pointing out people like guy whom posted earlier, don't seem to know or acknowledge that Spiridonov was a founding Pillar of Sambo, and that IMO, his softer more economical hidden movement style lived on in KGB and Stalin Bodyguards etc. is my guess.....to Kado, and with his extreme physics/leverage knowledge then boom Systema . Whether you think vids look silly or whatever......

I believe Sambo and Systema are tied to origins. I know some think Systema is made up, but how and why during Cold War, have I seen vids of hundreds of soldiers at attention to watch Kado demonstrate?

I am not anti Sambo, in fact I love it. I played by Sambo Rules at gym in Japan. I have a Black from Gokor and a lot we do is Sambo. I trained few times with Oleg back in day, and he is there in vids with Vladimir is he not? I love sport and Combat Sambo, and wish it was more available in the U.S.


Once you really understand Systema, if looking for system for KGB and for assassinations it is the one. Maybe for very tired hungry soldiers which has happened in Russian history too. Big Sambo throws is great in no gear when well fed and rested for tournament. How about long into war without sleep and food. Economy of motion, subtle hidden work is more efficient. I say have both and have all but that's just me.

 

[SandisLL]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARB_(martial_art)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_(martial_art)
For these tournaments are done and vids available too.
Actually big benefit is that observers are able to see effect from technique in full contact tournaments.


For not only empty hands more designed is this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand-to-hand_combat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program
Other countries have other stuff named differently but core should be the same.

 

[DanTheWolfman.com]

If you have yet not watched my Real Aikido and my Distracting Hands and My Anti-Cage Tactics video it will give you more to study. Also the Best Systema Combatives Highlights video.

Also my FSB style Breaking Structure Takedowns

For those that must need proof and don't see subtle things, LISTEN to the concepts I am teaching in that 2nd sparring video. Yes guys were smaller, but I didn't know that when I went to that gym...ownership had changed and used to be the BIG guy gym in Japan which I sparred at a lot in previous years.

 

[DanTheWolfman.com]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARB_(martial_art)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_(martial_art)
For these tournaments are done and vids available too.
Actually big benefit is that observers are able to see effect from technique in full contact tournaments.


For not only empty hands more designed is this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand-to-hand_combat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program
Other countries have other stuff named differently but core should be the same.

Yes I have posted some interesting ARB/H2H tournament footage on my FB page before I am well aware, you are not teaching me anything but going off track.

IF you are saying must have sparring for proof, well then we agree and you should listen to the things I say in those sparring videos.

 

[DanTheWolfman.com]

P.S. if you have seen any Systema in Metal Gear games,
Like a Cinematic against a knife stab a Kaitenage head and arm spin.....

That's likely from me.

 

[SandisLL]

you are not teaching me anything but going off track.

I actually don't wish and never had such intent to teach anyone for h2h like stuff, self defense etc like stuff. Im not that much interested in it.
Plenty of different instructors available, so for society no problem to find and choose them.

 

[DanTheWolfman.com]

I actually don't wish and never had such intent to teach anyone for h2h like stuff, self defense etc like stuff. Im not that much interested in it.
Plenty of different instructors available, so for society no problem to find and choose them.

What country are you from Sir or 1st language?

I was just trying to understand what your point was....

If it is simplified point that you need to see it in competition that I both disagree and agree... one shouldn't need such proof completely to learn subtle things sometimes you can ONLY FEEL, but all styles should spar.

If you are saying you would like to see more real sparring from Systema guys, well, I made that point pretty strong in my 2nd video....and it seemed to get some approval from some higher ups in that community.