Title Defenses is the Most Overrated Stat in UFC History

[USA!USA!]

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[fica]

I was looking at the "All Time GOAT" Poll and everyone was highly valuing "Title Defenses" which DOES matter but shouldn't be the MAIN argument against many fighters and their legacies.
We need to stop this BJ Penn vs Khabib Lightweight GOAT and Jose Aldo vs Volk Featherweight GOAT debates

The problem with that metric is that the variance in WHEN they got the title shot:

BJ Penn- 2 Fights before Title shot
Jose Aldo- Got the UFC belt from the jump(Worked his way from WEC but still)
Anderson Silva - Got a title shot after ONE fight in the UFC
Jon Jones- 3 Fights before Title Fight(Short Notice)
GSP - 4 Fights(3 Fights for Long Reign)
Demetrious Johnson- 2 Fights(Flyweight Tournament)
Tim Sylvia - 2 Fights Before Title shot
Anthony Pettis- 2 Fights before Title Shot
and So forth

On the other hand you got other great fighters who had to win FAR more fights before the title but are often LEFT OUT because they got their titles FAR later Legacy Wise
Khabib - 9 Fights Before Title Shot
Max Holloway - 9 Fights Before Title Shot
Charles Oliviera- 7 Fights Before Title Shot

This being the overall title defense stats:

Title Defenses - Fight Matrix

Most consecutive UFC title defenses Last Updated: 03/14/2024 Fighter Streak Timeframe Demetrious Johnson 11 2013-2017 Anderson Silva 10 2007-2012 Georges St. Pierre 9 2008-2013 (relinquished title) Jon Jones 8, 3 2011-2015 (relinquished), 2019-2020 (relinquished) Jose Aldo * 7 2011-2014...

www.fightmatrix.com

Also, the arguement about "You face the best when you're the champion", that is true however how do we know they couldnt beat those contenders if they had gotten the title shot after 2-3 fights? Is anyone really stopping Khabib or Max during their 6+ win streak if they got the title shot after 2 or 3 fights like the rest?

you just realize that now.they have to fight off course and train but most of time guy is old or undersized,. that is why i love pride no weight class grand prix fights in week and against anybody no matter size skill or strenght

 

[Bork Neslar]

Creating mental gymnastics to put guys like Khabib in the conversation with Jones, GSP and Silva is pretty autistic, to be fair.

Far from nerdy though because nerds tend to be smart and this isn't particularly smart.

I don't particularly care about Khabib. Don't fucking put words into my mouth. And your literal-mindedness shows that you belong to the type of fan that I despise. I like to watch fights, while you fat autistic nerds* are obsessed with records.


*Nerdiness has nothing to do with inteligence, fyi.

 

[chinarice]

I don't particularly care about Khabib. Don't fucking put words into my mouth. And your literal-mindedness shows that you belong to the type of fan that I despise. I like to watch fights, while you fat autistic nerds* are obsessed with records.


*Nerdiness has nothing to do with inteligence, fyi.

Ahh yes, the old resorting to insults because someone disagrees with you.

Well, I know where you're going. Goodbye. You're the worst type of fan on these forums and that's just a fact.

 

[TheTribalQueef]

I was looking at the "All Time GOAT" Poll and everyone was highly valuing "Title Defenses" which DOES matter but shouldn't be the MAIN argument against many fighters and their legacies.
We need to stop this BJ Penn vs Khabib Lightweight GOAT and Jose Aldo vs Volk Featherweight GOAT debates

The problem with that metric is that the variance in WHEN they got the title shot:

BJ Penn- 2 Fights before Title shot
Jose Aldo- Got the UFC belt from the jump(Worked his way from WEC but still)
Anderson Silva - Got a title shot after ONE fight in the UFC
Jon Jones- 3 Fights before Title Fight(Short Notice)
GSP - 4 Fights(3 Fights for Long Reign)
Demetrious Johnson- 2 Fights(Flyweight Tournament)
Tim Sylvia - 2 Fights Before Title shot
Anthony Pettis- 2 Fights before Title Shot
and So forth

On the other hand you got other great fighters who had to win FAR more fights before the title but are often LEFT OUT because they got their titles FAR later Legacy Wise
Khabib - 9 Fights Before Title Shot
Max Holloway - 9 Fights Before Title Shot
Charles Oliviera- 7 Fights Before Title Shot

This being the overall title defense stats:

Title Defenses - Fight Matrix

Most consecutive UFC title defenses Last Updated: 03/14/2024 Fighter Streak Timeframe Demetrious Johnson 11 2013-2017 Anderson Silva 10 2007-2012 Georges St. Pierre 9 2008-2013 (relinquished title) Jon Jones 8, 3 2011-2015 (relinquished), 2019-2020 (relinquished) Jose Aldo * 7 2011-2014...

www.fightmatrix.com

Also, the arguement about "You face the best when you're the champion", that is true however how do we know they couldnt beat those contenders if they had gotten the title shot after 2-3 fights? Is anyone really stopping Khabib or Max during their 6+ win streak if they got the title shot after 2 or 3 fights like the rest?

Lol You're a liar. Jon Jones had like 10 fights in the ufc undefeated before he got a title shot and that was in a 3 year time span.

 

[CasualTakes]

As far I'm concerned title defenses is THE most important metric when it comes to GOAT staus. I don't care if you went 0-3 to start your career or 20-0. It's how you respond to fighting hungry killers gunning for you and trying to knock you off that shows your true greatness. However, quality of opponent also comes into play. Who did you beat in a title fight and at what point in their career. For example, Jones beating a 42 year old Stipe would mean very little to me. But I get that he wants the name on his resume.

 

[chinarice]

Lol You're a liar. Jon Jones had like 10 fights in the ufc undefeated before he got a title shot and that was in a 3 year time span.

It was 7 fights but still closer than the 3 the TS is claiming.

 

[Black9]

Lol You're a liar. Jon Jones had like 10 fights in the ufc undefeated before he got a title shot and that was in a 3 year time span.

It was 7 in totality, however he has a DQ loss in the middle so i was saying "3" as i was taking that as a reset of his streak from the loss to get to the title shot.
A caveat yes, but a loss in the middle of a streak does bring you down the ladder(even if its a faulty dumb one).

 

[ComeChooDaddy]

Nice try, Conor.

 

[chinarice]

It was 7 in totality, however he has a DQ loss in the middle so i was saying "3" as i was taking that as a reset of his streak from the loss to get to the title shot.
A caveat yes, but a loss in the middle of a streak does bring you down the ladder(even if its a faulty dumb one).

That's not how you worded it in the OP. You said he had 3 fights before his title fight.

He absolutely didn't budge in the ranks after getting DQ'ed for beating up a handicap. It's one of the most ridiculous losses I've ever seen. Terrible reffing. The fight should have been stopped waaaaayyy before those elbows.

 

[NationWideNinja]

OP's point pretty much boils down to the ASSUMPTION that guys like Khabib and Holloway would have racked up just as many title defenses as they currently have non-title wins IF they had just gotten the shot earlier. Completely ignoring that for example Holloway was beaten early by Dennis Bermudez and was gradually improving and wasnt always the beast he currently is.

All of that is great in fantasy land, but the reality is that guys like GSP, Anderson, Jones, DJ had title-defense streaks against the best the division had to offer on a consistent basis for years on end, while Khabib is a long reigning champ only in our imaginations.

Not even hating on Khabib because hes an obviously extremely rare talent, but assumptions are very dangerous in MMA. We also thought that Strickland was a gimme for Adesanya, or Renan Barao would be the next Anderson Silva.

 

[Laheys'Liquorland]

So how bout win streaks like Tony Ferg and Benny D? Are those the most underrated stats in UFC History?
They never got a title shot, but it they did earlier then they would've racked up 10 title defenses easily.

 

[chinarice]

That is true however how do we know they couldnt beat those contenders if they had gotten the title shot after 2-3 fights? Is anyone really stopping Khabib or Max during their 6+ win streak if they got the title shot after 2 or 3 fights like the rest?

Its really how we determine that metric i think

Is Khabib in fight # 8 beating BJ Penn? Dude got gifted a decision against Gleison who is much worse, 10 fights after that.

It's more likely if they got pushed at the same rate or at least in Khabib's case, he would have losses on his record.

 

[Black9]

So how bout win streaks like Tony Ferg and Benny D? Are those the most underrated stats in UFC History?
They never got a title shot, but it they did earlier then they would've racked up 10 title defenses easily.

That's my point.
In any other era or division really. Tony ferguson would have rattled off possibly a 7-9 fight title defense streak if he got the same title shot opportunity and if Conor didn't hold up the division for years. But now he's just a sad example of what happens when you don't have the same opportunity as the other people i listed.

My point isnt dismissing title defenses its obviously important, its the fact that there's way too MUCH value on something some people have/had a far far longer road to get too(or never even had the opprotunity to get too such as in Benny/Tony's case)

 

[chinarice]

That's my point.
In any other era or division really. Tony ferguson would have rattled off possibly a 7-9 fight title defense streak if he got the same title shot opportunity and if Conor didn't hold up the division for years. But now he's just a sad example of what happens when you don't have the same opportunity as the other people i listed.

My point isnt dismissing title defenses its obviously important, its the fact that there's way too MUCH value on something some people have/had a far far longer road to get too(or never even had the opprotunity to get too such as in Benny/Tony's case)

That's a baseless claim regarding Tony and I'm unquestionably one of his biggest fans on this website.

 

[acannxr]

That "top 10 wins" stat doesn't address poor quality divisions

Outside of analyzing a division based on objective stats such as average age, depth, and turnovers within the top ten ranks (which I've already done here for LW to HW), anything else is purely subjective.

it only gives additional credit for high quality non title matches.

It also discredits title defenses with undeserving challengers; accounting for both of those variables makes divisional GOAT debates a lot more accurate.

It is almost a given that title defenses are top 10 wins with some very rare exceptions(like Jones v Sonnen which you mentioned)

That's nothing more than an assumption on your part. As someone who actually went through every champions' resumes it's not an exception, but a frequent occurrence.

For example, 40% of Anderson Silva's title defenses were against opponents not ranked in the top ten (that percent increases to 45.45% if you include Lutter).

the difference between top 10 wins and normal title defense counting is neglible.

Another assumption and opinion on your part.

The top 10 stat is useless at discerning a divisions quality.

By that logic, the stat of title defenses doesn't discern the quality of a division either, so the fact that you're using that as a point in your argument is contradictory.

 

[TerrorTimmy]

Maybe if Khabib didn’t go life and death with Gleison Tibau he would have gotten a shot sooner.

Maybe some day you'll come up with something new to say, since that's literally the only thing you can hate Khabib for. But that horse has been dead for almost a decade, maybe it's time to stop hitting him?

 

[deanambrose]

I agree. Journey to the title matters too.

So let's say what is the difference between beating prime Poirier during journey to title shot than beating prime Poirier as champion?

 

[wolffanghameha]

I agree it's overrated. Imo top 5 wins is more important, maybe even top 10 (definitely need to look at the actual quality of opposition though. #10 at BW in 2023 is a different story to in 2012). Tony Ferg is considered one of the best LWs ever, ahead of some champions, despite never getting the title.

Winning as champ does have the added factor of being the guy in the limelight that everyone is focused on game-planning for, so I think winning as champ is worth more than the same fight as non-champ.

 

[Goutfather]

the most meaningless stat is merely having the title, since it can be won from fighting a part time real estate agent. it only means something once you defend it, preferably multiple times. and if you want to be considered the best, you should probably set a record for defenses in your division.