Travis Stevens: "BJJ is NOT more complex than Judo, not even in the same ballpark."

[BJ@LW&WW]

Maybe we can call that complex, maybe we can call that "refined", but since BJJ appears to have a greater sheer number of things to be good at, on its face it seems more complex to me.

im agreeing on that. im saying your understanding of the throws, their complexity, and their setup is greatly simplified.

for the record, im a judo black belt (shodan) and a bjj purple belt who started in bjj first.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

The drag was part of a takedown combination that put him on his back. He didn’t end up on all fours and then stand up again, he had to fight back to his feet off his back. Of course judo doesn’t count that combo as a takedown, particularly since it was effectively finished as a leg grab, but that’s my point ... it’s dumb that such an efficient takedown that puts your opponent on his back is not counted, whereas some ridiculous rolling uchimata is given ippon. This is the kind of thing that creates glaring holes in judo as a grappling art, for no good reason.

Judo guys will often exalt things like foot sweeps for being so simple and efficient, and yet an equally simple and efficient way to take dominant position against a standing opponent is discounted because it doesn’t lead to scoring efficiently in judo comps under judo scoring.

Drags are working for rule sets, that actually score them.
Judo is not, because of the reasons I stated above.

You can try to find a video, where a collar drag was scored, but in order to do so, it must be combined with a ground work, mainly turnover and a pin or a sub.
Hence, the big 5 plus Kataguruma variations, hip throws and Uranage are the most common- when executed, the match is over.

Dumb or not, those are the rules.

There are plenty of dumb things in every rule set out there, depending on the point of view.
Fact is, there is no Olympic Judo champ, relying on collar drags.
They are considered defensive Judo and spamming them will lead to DQ.

The video with Yuri posted, had him falling on his knees and getting up.

Foot sweeps are not simple and require about 7-8 years to master and apply in medium level competitions.

EDIT: Just rewatched the video- this is not a collar drag
Its Ukiwaza variation.
A failed one.

 

[QingTian]

The drag was part of a takedown combination that put him on his back. He didn’t end up on all fours and then stand up again, he had to fight back to his feet off his back. Of course judo doesn’t count that combo as a takedown, particularly since it was effectively finished as a leg grab, but that’s my point ... it’s dumb that such an efficient takedown that puts your opponent on his back is not counted, whereas some ridiculous rolling uchimata is given ippon. This is the kind of thing that creates glaring holes in judo as a grappling art, for no good reason.

Judo guys will often exalt things like foot sweeps for being so simple and efficient, and yet an equally simple and efficient way to take dominant position against a standing opponent is discounted because it doesn’t lead to scoring efficiently in judo comps under judo scoring.

Ok I didn't rewatch the video but Travis seemed to end up on his back not because of the takedown but because of choices made afterwards which no doubt were influenced by BJJ rules. It's not fair to give credit to the dragdown as the cause of it.

As for what should count, historically Judo instituted ippon because they wanted a sudden death possibility, representing KO, because of the sportive/martial mindset it would foster. Ok, why is that contradictory to its rules not reflecting a real fight? The problem is that you have to make the game balanced so that not every stupid thing ends the match and deters the development of higher refinement. If you allow facedown scoring, then a very many failed throws or half hearted attempts then become fight finishers. Japanese at that time wanted the all-in mentality, not gamemanship.

I agree a rolling ippon is lame but I think that's a separate issue.

 

[RJ Green]

Judo is pretty simple once you understand kazushi. I just stay there and rock a few staple throws. Actually I rock a valley drop.

Dunning Kruger in full effect right here

 

[Mcmoon]

The drag was part of a takedown combination that put him on his back. He didn’t end up on all fours and then stand up again, he had to fight back to his feet off his back. Of course judo doesn’t count that combo as a takedown, particularly since it was effectively finished as a leg grab, but that’s my point ... it’s dumb that such an efficient takedown that puts your opponent on his back is not counted, whereas some ridiculous rolling uchimata is given ippon. This is the kind of thing that creates glaring holes in judo as a grappling art, for no good reason.

Judo guys will often exalt things like foot sweeps for being so simple and efficient, and yet an equally simple and efficient way to take dominant position against a standing opponent is discounted because it doesn’t lead to scoring efficiently in judo comps under judo scoring.

When I teach te guruma I always emphasize a big pull which is basically a collar drag. I've pulled people off their feet with just the pull. If they land on all fours I continue to hook the leg and just spin and tilt them over.

 

[Balto]

It's interesting to me to watch the different reactions that Judo and BJJ take towards seeing other arts and strategies.

It seems the Judo response to the Yuri collar drag takedown clip is largely that Stevens simply could not be bothered to defend such a low level technique. This is in spite of the fact that the collar drag is a high level technique, scores well, scores under the rule set utilized in the match, and likely was a major factor in Yuri winning the decision in that match.

In contrast, the BJJ response to the clip of Stevens executing a few throws in rapid succession in a black belt IBJJF match is largely to just appreciate the obvious high level skill on display. I didn't see any comments pointing out the fact that none of those throws actually scored points under BJJ rules since they weren't followed up by three seconds of top control. I could see an advantage for the forward throw, and that's about it.

It seems to be a bit of disconnect to me.

 

[lechien]

This is the analogy I like to use to compare judo to Bjj.

Judo is like learning how to surf.
Bjj is like learning how to do body boarding.

It takes a long time to to learn and have fun surfing.
Bodysurfing is way different as it is almost instant gratification . You have fun straight away. As it is way easier.. just like bjj. You can buy bodyboard and ride wave straight away unlike surfing.


Boarding also hurts less than surfing.....lol

 

[Zankou]

Ok I didn't rewatch the video but Travis seemed to end up on his back not because of the takedown but because of choices made afterwards which no doubt were influenced by BJJ rules. It's not fair to give credit to the dragdown as the cause of it.

As for what should count, historically Judo instituted ippon because they wanted a sudden death possibility, representing KO, because of the sportive/martial mindset it would foster. Ok, why is that contradictory to its rules not reflecting a real fight? The problem is that you have to make the game balanced so that not every stupid thing ends the match and deters the development of higher refinement. If you allow facedown scoring, then a very many failed throws or half hearted attempts then become fight finishers. Japanese at that time wanted the all-in mentality, not gamemanship.

I agree a rolling ippon is lame but I think that's a separate issue.

He goes to his back on the mat because otherwise his only defense was to give up the back. In judo, you don’t really care about giving up the back in all but the most narrow of circumstances. Defensive flops to all fours or going flat on the ground are strongly encouraged. Never mind that this is no better, in a broader rule set, than going right to your back, and it is often much worse. Travis would have been at apex submission threat if he let Yuri on his back, so he just gave up the takedown and went to guard, which is a much less dangerous position to defend.

I get your points about ippon, but the reality is that most judo throws don’t resemble fight finishers, and many extremely valuable techniques for fighting are ignored for reasons that make no sense. It is odd that one of the most dominant and useful of all ways to get a guy down is dismissed as if it were a mere gimmick. As if snapdowns in wrestling are like some cheap trick. And yet a rolling seio nage or uchimata is upheld as if it is an ancient elite samurai move, when in reality it’s sucidal and goofy as a combat maneuver. And footsweeps, these are the gifts of god himself. But an ankle pick, that’s a wicked travesty.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

It's interesting to me to watch the different reactions that Judo and BJJ take towards seeing other arts and strategies.

It seems the Judo response to the Yuri collar drag takedown clip is largely that Stevens simply could not be bothered to defend such a low level technique. This is in spite of the fact that the collar drag is a high level technique, scores well, scores under the rule set utilized in the match, and likely was a major factor in Yuri winning the decision in that match.

In contrast, the BJJ response to the clip of Stevens executing a few throws in rapid succession in a black belt IBJJF match is largely to just appreciate the obvious high level skill on display. I didn't see any comments pointing out the fact that none of those throws actually scored points under BJJ rules since they weren't followed up by three seconds of top control. I could see an advantage for the forward throw, and that's about it.

It seems to be a bit of disconnect to me.

Or maybe, people should comment stuff they know in details.

2-3 months of Judo experience is the same, as 2-3 months of BJJ experience.

Does it make you an expert?
No.

There are literally just a handful of people on F12, that could discuss rule sets and their details of both sports, besides competing in both of them for years.

People here cant even identify difference between a throw and a takedown, let alone the proper name of it.

 

[Zankou]

Btw I’m obviously a huge fan of both sports, it’s just unfortunate that for all the talk you hear from judo pedagogy about efficient takedowns it has an equal volume of talk about why many kinds of efficient takedowns are just ‘cheap,’ because they’re not the right kind of way to take somebody down, or supposedly won’t work for some nonsensical reason. It’s very anti-Kano, ironically.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

He goes to his back on the mat because otherwise his only defense was to give up the back. In judo, you don’t really care about giving up the back in all but the most narrow of circumstances. Defensive flops to all fours or going flat on the ground are strongly encouraged. Never mind that this is no better, in a broader rule set, than going right to your back, and it is often much worse. Travis would have been at apex submission threat if he let Yuri on his back, so he just gave up the takedown and went to guard, which is a much less dangerous position to defend.

I get your points about ippon, but the reality is that most judo throws don’t resemble fight finishers, and many extremely valuable techniques for fighting are ignored for reasons that make no sense. It is odd that one of the most dominant and useful of all ways to get a guy down is dismissed as if it were a mere gimmick. As if snapdowns in wrestling are like some cheap trick. And yet a rolling seio nage or uchimata is upheld as if it is an ancient elite samurai move, when in reality it’s sucidal and goofy as a combat maneuver. And footsweeps, these are the gifts of god himself. But an ankle pick, that’s a wicked travesty.

Woulda shoulda doesnt matter.

Yuri went for a takedown and got the takedown artist to the ground, where the ground artist failed to follow up.

Match in question is given as example to prove which point exactly?

Dont mix up styles- wrestling has its own rule sets (not only one), where snap downs are scored.
But wrestling is not the topic here.

Judo is.

You are a moderator here and freely hijack the thread, bringing all kinds of BS, samurais and whatnot.
Do you know the rules of both?
No.

What else you got, to contribute?

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Btw I’m obviously a huge fan of both sports, it’s just unfortunate that for all the talk you hear from judo pedagogy about efficient takedowns it has an equal volume of talk about why many kinds of efficient takedowns are just ‘cheap,’ because they’re not the right kind of way to take somebody down, or supposedly won’t work for some nonsensical reason. It’s very anti-Kano, ironically.

Oh, you know Kano now?

 

[Balto]

Btw I’m obviously a huge fan of both sports, it’s just unfortunate that for all the talk you hear from judo pedagogy about efficient takedowns it has an equal volume of talk about why many kinds of efficient takedowns are just ‘cheap,’ because they’re not the right kind of way to take somebody down, or supposedly won’t work for some nonsensical reason. It’s very anti-Kano, ironically.

I have to say Judo is the only live resistance grappling art where I've had the instructors start off teaching by talking about how ugly and ineffective other grappling styles are. I've seen it happen multiple times. It might just be a US Judo thing, but it's definitely noticeable.

Funny thing is wrestlers seem to have none of this whatsoever. In BJJ, I've only ever seen it from the Gracies as a marketing tool. It's not widely believed.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I have to say Judo is the only live resistance grappling art where I've had the instructors start off teaching by talking about how ugly and ineffective other grappling styles are. I've seen it happen multiple times. It might just be a US Judo thing, but it's definitely noticeable.

Funny thing is wrestlers seem to have none of this whatsoever. In BJJ, I've only ever seen it from the Gracies as a marketing tool. It's not widely believed.

You dont know enough wrestlers then
All my wrestling coaches have taken massive shits not only on other sports, but on other wrestling styles too.

What am I supposed to do with this information now?
Apologize for every Judo coach behaviour in the world or what?

Do we even have adults in F12 anymore?

Is there anyone who can discuss rule sets, sports education methodology, adequate strategies for different grappling sports, without been so emotional?

 

[Zankou]

You dont know enough wrestlers then
All my wrestling coaches have taken massive shits not only on other sports, but on other wrestling styles too.

What am I supposed to do with this information now?
Apologize for every Judo coach behaviour in the world or what?

Do we even have adults in F12 anymore?

Is there anyone who can discuss rule sets, sports education methodology, adequate strategies for different grappling sports, without been so emotional?

You seem to be the only one getting emotional. The thread was about some comments made by an elite judoka / bjj player. People are obviously going to respond to what he’s saying in terms of the relative complexity of the two arts. And obviously he’s super skilled at both. So it’s a fun conversation topic. Nobody needs to get worked up about it, particularly since there’s nobody in this thread who is of the ‘only grappling art x rules’ persuasion.

Interesting side note, I’m pretty sure that Stevens reversed Yuri’s single leg attempt in that match using the same type of step over counter that Stevens himself got beat by in the Olympic judo finals.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

You seem to be the only one getting emotional. The thread was about some comments made by an elite judoka / bjj player. People are obviously going to respond to what he’s saying in terms of the relative complexity of the two arts. And obviously he’s super skilled at both. So it’s a fun conversation topic.

Or maybe...

You could go back and read all my posts in this thread and realize there is only one guy here, talking about samurais, death, killing, Kano, "cheap" takedowns...

And thats you

Im holding a referee discussion

 

[Balto]

You dont know enough wrestlers then
All my wrestling coaches have taken massive shits not only on other sports, but on other wrestling styles too.

What am I supposed to do with this information now?
Apologize for every Judo coach behaviour in the world or what?

Do we even have adults in F12 anymore?

Is there anyone who can discuss rule sets, sports education methodology, adequate strategies for different grappling sports, without been so emotional?

Mostly I deal with US wrestlers and coaches so I'm sure we have different experiences. Although I have known a few Freestyle guys from other nations and they were very open minded as well, even the Olympians. Bekzod Abdurakhmonov showed some stuff to me once and was super approachable for how high level he was. He actually blew my mind with how smooth his stuff was. He was hitting moves that looked like Aikido in live training. I still use one thing he taught me actually.

I wasn't asking you to apologize for Judo coaches by the way. I wasn't even addressing you actually. I was just talking to Zankou.

I have met tons of cool guys in Judo. I was lucky to learn from some guys who were on the US Judo team for a few years. They were all cool about it. My bad experiences were with random other guys; most weren't very good as far as I could tell.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Mostly I deal with US wrestlers and coaches so I'm sure we have different experiences. Although I have known a few Freestyle guys from other nations and they were very open minded as well, even the Olympians. Bekzod Abdurakhmonov showed some stuff to me once and was super approachable for how high level he was. He actually blew my mind with how smooth his stuff was. He was hitting moves that looked like Aikido in live training. I still use one thing he taught me actually.

I wasn't asking you to apologize for Judo coaches by the way. I wasn't even addressing you actually. I was just talking to Zankou.

I have met tons of cool guys in Judo. I was lucky to learn from some guys who were on the US Judo team for a few years. They were all cool about it. My bad experiences were with random other guys; most weren't very good as far as I could tell.

That might be relevant in a wrestling thread

 

[Kaffe]

I’ve always found that it is the lower level guys who disparage other arts. The good players, like the apex predators they are, rarely seem to feel the need to bark like the small dogs do.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I’ve always found that it is the lower level guys who disparage other arts. The good players, like the apex predators they are, rarely seem to feel the need to bark like the small dogs do.

2 times Olympic Greco champ and a wrestling federation chief has no love for the freestylers

Ive heard such remarks from ALL grappling and non grappling styles, low and high level athletes and average Joes.

It comes with the territory.

The high level people can discuss rule sets from all points of view, all day everyday though.
And be very professional about it too.