Two vital techniques not used against Machida.

[ChachiKiller]

I am not sure any technique will do. Timing and movement is more important. I think Machida gets fighters really confused. He moves out of the way and then intercepts an attach as it is forming. It makes them hesitant. Then they start flinching or have a hard time committing with intensity. Ultimately the follow him with less effectiveness.

I see "cutting off the ring" as a solution. What then? Many times, in order to cut off a ring, especially against a faster opponent, you must do something drastic, take larger steps at a 45 degrees. Machida cuts either direction because he backpeddles in a neutral way. It allows him to go either direction. If you lerch at him, you will be off balance as he hits.

He sets up his attack and game plan by getting opponents stymied. My base is Shotokan and I fought the same way. Movement with the feel with irregularity (like Rashad already does). Is a good start. When you engage, throw a fake right. If Machida commits to rushing in with his straight left, you pull the fake back dip a little to the left and throw a baseball pitch overhand right (like Rashad did to Liddell). You will have Machida coming to you, his left hand extended (you would not be near it) and a big overhand right coming at him. It is like drawing someone off sides in a football game.

If you hit him he could decide to not use that slide in straight left. That would reduce his game significantly.

I sent Rashad's management an e-mail today asking him if he needed someone to mimic Machida. Scary as hell to get pounded but really cool if I could do it.

 

[mobeck]

Completely agree with most of what's been said.

Machida needs to be cut off, and it isn't impossible to do so. His opponents simply seem to get too impatient and come in too quickly without timing him and getting a beat on his rhythm. I also see a real weakness in Machida's game, which is the fact that he doesn't throw combinations. His style is more to move laterally and back, and then explode suddenly with one hard strike. I think this can be exploited by a smart fighter.

Thiago's strategy was just terrible. I don't know if his gameplan fell apart inside the cage, or if he just didn't have a good one to begin with. He just seemed to be walking straight forward with no jab, no head movement, and flat footed. I was not surprised to see him get clocked with so many hard shots.

I'd love to see Anderson Silva vs Machida at 205 sometime.

 

[ChachiKiller]

dup

 

[Meatsack]

Interesting, Chachi...both times.:icon_chee

 

[ambertch]

I think when Machida fights Evans, Greg Jackson will do the smart thing against Machida and actually go read up/train/study Shotokan and THEN devise some plan to beat him based on the weaknesses and opportunities he sees in that style, rather than the kind of speculation that everyone's doing.

 

[Soul Rebel 2]

your kinda right about the jab.. but your wrong about the cuttin off the octagon.. its easier said than done against machida.. you see machida doesnt move just backwards.. he goes side to side.. he good at backin up.. coming from a different angle and popin you one in the face.

Yeah thats the point. TS is 100% correct, MMA guys tend to follow their opponents as opposed to cut them off.

also TS, good call on the jab

 

[Mef-ninja]

Nothing you stated here says why a person couldn't or shouldn't attempt to cut Lyoto off. He's quick on his feet, but when someone moves side-to-side regardless of their speed, in ANY combat sport, you don't just follow them around. You step side-to-side, too, and you attempt to find their rhythm so you can disrupt it.

And for people saying the jab would be countered with kicks, I'd certainly hope someone in MMA would know not to throw arbitrary jabs from range. Fzubek is smart enough to know that he's talking about technically sound jabs, in which you step in with the jabs. You don't just jab and keep your feet where they are, and be a sitting duck for kicks. It's much harder to kick someone who is coming at you with a punch than it is to kick someone who is just standing there waiting to be kicked, or just walking around with their hands up.

Range is something MMA Fighters are just now starting to really understand. And I think it REALLY was shown with BJ's win over Sherk where BJ was successful at keeping Sherk at the end of a jab most of the night. When Rashad fought Forrest, I actually felt Rashad was trying to stay at long range too much and his quick hands would have been better served closer to Forrest rather than at the ends of his long limbs, which is why Rashad got out-struck on the outside. And Rashad's corner kept telling him to stay OUT, rather than close the gap and light Forrest up on the inside.

Sure he might have been taken down, but look what happened when the Fight went to the ground.

Sometimes people get the impression NOTHING works in MMA. Can't jab because of kicks, can't kick because of takedowns, can't cut off the octagon because of angles, etc. If that were true, Lyoto's just invincible, which is hardly the case.

cutting machida off is easier said than done.. people try it all the time.. theres soo many ways to cut a fighter off.. plus.. cutting someone off in a ring is one thing.. doing it in the cage is another.. usually you'll just end up in a clinch again the fence.. there has to be a better more effective way to beat machida.. maybe greg jackson will figure it out.

one thing to take note is that machida on throws strikes when he sees oportunity.. you never see him throw out strikes to distract you and bait you into something. maybe that could be capitalized on.

 

[sickc0d3r]

We haven't seen anyone with a decent stand up game fight Machida yet... you could say Sokoudju maybe but he stands right in front of people.

Rampage comes to mind as a better test because he has excellent head movement and is a great counter puncher. I could see that slipping style creating an opening or two for him.

 

[Too Defensive**]

Again, any of the current light heavy weights should NOT try to chase after Lyoto. That is his trap. Cut him off in angles or what ever might be effective, but Lyoto is a master counter puncher. Today's LHWs would lose that game. The best method is to let Machida come to you and counter or stophit him. I see no other way. (with the current UFC LHW line up anyway)

 

[ChachiKiller]

We haven't seen anyone with a decent stand up game fight Machida yet... you could say Sokoudju maybe but he stands right in front of people.

Rampage comes to mind as a better test because he has excellent head movement and is a great counter puncher. I could see that slipping style creating an opening or two for him.

Franklin has great stand up.
Bonner is decent.
White is decent.

 

[Andrew909]

Again, any of the current light heavy weights should NOT try to chase after Lyoto. That is his trap. Cut him off in angles or what ever might be effective, but Lyoto is a master counter puncher. Today's LHWs would lose that game. The best method is to let Machida come to you and counter or stophit him. I see no other way. (with the current UFC LHW line up anyway)

This.

I dont know why these guys get baited so easily into following him, thats he exactly what he wants.

 

[ChachiKiller]

This.

I dont know why these guys get baited so easily into following him, thats he exactly what he wants.

I keep hearing this.

He will meet you in the middle and throw sharp leg kicks. When you go to counter, he will counter you. All he needs to do in an engagement is throw a simple kick and it looks like he is pushing. He has done this before.

 

[devante]

I'm surprised Silva didn't fight a smarter fight. I think Machida has done so well because he is truly one of the first fighters utilizing this type of striking technique in MMA.
And I'm not referring to his Karate background, but rather his stick and move, defense first style.

But this isn't a new style to boxing, and while I realize utilizing Boxing techniques alone wont win you a fight against someone as well versed as Machida, it would completely nullify his offense and defense on the feet.

Two things i have never seen someone try against Machida..

#1 Jabbing- You simply cannot chase someone as good as Machida down without a jabbing, double jabbing and even tripling the jab.

A consistent jab, would not have only helped Silva create contact with Machida, it would have allowed him to close the distance, and create oppurtunities to land a right hand.

#2 Cutting the Octagon off, rather than following Machida in a straight line.

Ortiz and Silva followed Machida around one way, in straight lines, and this plays right into Machidas technique, and he doesnt have to think about when or where to throw his counters as he knows his opponent is following him in a straight line.

i got what your saying and your right to a degree people in mma seem to not know how to cut off the cage, instead they chase or followe; meaning they end up whiffing and often get countered left & right.

still i feel that part of his success is his karate; people don't know how to attack him cus they don't know how to attack a karate guy (who is familiar/skilled in mma), they approach him w/a general gameplan that they know to work against the kickboxing/muay thai. But it doesn't work against karatekas, due to the diff philosophy, strategy and tech used to accomplish the same things; i.e. def/counters/controlling spacing/etc.

as shonie carter said when he talked about the tito/machida matchup; find a GOOD karate man, not a boxer-kickboxer or muay thai guy, that is the only way you will be able to breakdown what he does and if you don't find a good karate guy your gonna get your ass kicked,,,which he did.

 

[ghost scribble]

I'm surprised Silva didn't fight a smarter fight. I think Machida has done so well because he is truly one of the first fighters utilizing this type of striking technique in MMA.
And I'm not referring to his Karate background, but rather his stick and move, defense first style.

But this isn't a new style to boxing, and while I realize utilizing Boxing techniques alone wont win you a fight against someone as well versed as Machida, it would completely nullify his offense and defense on the feet.

Two things i have never seen someone try against Machida..

#1 Jabbing- You simply cannot chase someone as good as Machida down without a jabbing, double jabbing and even tripling the jab.

A consistent jab, would not have only helped Silva create contact with Machida, it would have allowed him to close the distance, and create oppurtunities to land a right hand.

#2 Cutting the Octagon off, rather than following Machida in a straight line.

Ortiz and Silva followed Machida around one way, in straight lines, and this plays right into Machidas technique, and he doesnt have to think about when or where to throw his counters as he knows his opponent is following him in a straight line.

I think Thiago said that cutting off the angles was part of his gameplan, but it's a lot harder to do than I think we give credit for.

 

[mrpopenfresh]

Thiago had absolutely ZERO gameplan getting into that fight. You would think he would have a plan B after his bullrushing failed.

 

[baconCrunch]

ppl can sit here and analyze this all day
there's no special secret to fighting machida

silva tried to apply pressure on machida, which is a good way to fight a counter striker
the same way fedor closed the distance with crocop

but the big difference is that silva is not half the striker that machida is,
in terms of technique, footwork and quickness


the man is all around. period.

 

[sickc0d3r]

Franklin has great stand up.
Bonner is decent.
White is decent.

Can't argue with Franklin and White, though I don't really like Bonnar's standup... golden gloves notwithstanding he has slow feet and his head is there for you all the time.

Franklin fought him early in his career and he said he didn't gameplan for the guy; under-estimated him and payed for it. I still think Machida beats Franklin today though.

I think my point still stands... a guy with good head movement and slick footwork like Rampage has a good shot at landing more than anyone else in LHW IMO. He is deceptively fast and crafty. I ain't saying he would win because Machida has a lot more range and he throws great kicks whereas 'page never does.

Rashad has a shot maybe because he won't engage... but I think he relies on pure speed and reflexes and not really footwork and technique... and Machida will be faster plus have the technique.

 

[sickc0d3r]

ppl can sit here and analyze this all day
there's no special secret to fighting machida

silva tried to apply pressure on machida, which is a good way to fight a counter striker
the same way fedor closed the distance with crocop

but the big difference is that silva is not half the striker that machida is,
in terms of technique, footwork and quickness


the man is all around. period.

Hey it's the standup forum... we like to analyze fighters!

Good points though.

 

[FREE BEER!]

You're speaking from a boxing standpoint, but have you considered the repercussions of throwing a triple jab with KICKS involved?

Watch a kickboxing bout. Jabs are used, but not nearly as much as in pure boxing, because of the modified range and availability of counters.

I think the TS has agood point, but you're right about double and triple jabs leaving you vulnerable to kicks. When Tito got close, he got liver kicked and hip tossed. Maybe a better striker would have more luck, but they would certainly be leaving themselves open to kicks and takedowns.

 

[ambertch]

i got what your saying and your right to a degree people in mma seem to not know how to cut off the cage, instead they chase or followe; meaning they end up whiffing and often get countered left & right.

I think they know to cut off the cage but it's likely much harder to do than they anticipated

let's not forget a couple points here:

- Octagon's not a ring. It's almost a circle. It's much harder to cut this off than a ring where as the defender moves laterally he RUNS OUT OF SPACE. In an octagon/circle he has more room to run

- UFC octagon is HUGE. Even in boxing huge rings favor mobile guys, and boxers who like to cut off the ring prefer smaller rings of course. The Octagon is like a 24' diameter? That's a bigger surface area than the biggest ring in boxing.



Now consider this: most gyms don't have cages... just a ring, and if they have a cage no way do they have a UFC sized cage. They will have like a 15 foot cage maybe. Which is pretty small. So how would they effectively practice cutting off the cage for a UFC match?