VR / AR Gaming Headset FAQ (Virtual Reality Gaming)

[Madmick]

Well, this is starting to get sad. I actually like you, and I feel bad I have to keep doing this to you, and in front of your peers no less.

No, I understood completely, stop trying to squirm away from your point that "VR has to be cheaper". It's what you were arguing, and implying with the context. Saying VR has to meet those price points, or similar to succeed, or compete. You are wrong.

For comparable market saturation. You still aren't getting this.

Been working in the industry for 20+ years, currently working with Robert Scoble, and have been apart of start ups that had rounds funded for more money than you'll ever see in your entire life.

Doing what? You a VR engineer? You in gaming? I simply don't believe you; someone who perceives $2bn to be a big market.

Ok, well, I mean you're wrong? By all means you can try to illustrate me in any way that makes you feel comfortable. In the end? You still look, and sound stupid and have no idea how this industry is operating, let alone how the R&D is attached to market value. Let's briefly explain below.

Again, whatever helps you sleep at night.

You asked for proof that R&D was happening by large tech companies, and not by non-entertainment, AI standards.

No, I queried for a review of R&D in gaming VR as a percentage of overall R&D (not just to VR, but of gaming itself). You clearly struggle with more complex language. The implied argument, which went over your head, is that there is not as much money being pumped into this aspect of VR as there is normal investment in development of more lucrative, mainstream gaming projects. In fact, I just reviewed what I wrote. That was explicit.

Not only did I link a graph that shows the vast majority of the market is in consumer / consumer electronics, but I showed you the increase of the market value, and that always correlates with the amount of R&D you'll find with said product. Honestly? I thought you'd be smart enough to reverse engineer this, otherwise I'd have just started with links like this:

http://www.iam-media.com/blog/detail.aspx?g=6b19bfa2-2030-45d0-9adc-e6c566348078
https://beta.techcrunch.com/2016/06/29/htc-vive-announces-10-billion-vr-venture-capital-alliance/
http://fortune.com/2017/01/18/facebook-mark-zuckerberg-virtual-reality-billions/
https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/20/google-buys-htc-pixel-team-1-1-billion/
https://www.roadtovr.com/google-developing-vr-display-10x-pixels-todays-headsets/

But again, I thought you weren't an idiot? I apologize.

Talk about squirming. Your chart indicates that less than 50% of $2bn is dedicated to consumer electronics, and it doesn't indicate what portion of this is specifically gaming VR headsets.

Not that it matters. Let's do some simple math. What is $100bn divided by less than $1bn?

Oh Mick, can you show anymore of your ignorance? This is an incredible market for a new "display", very few things, VERY few things in tech take off like this, and start with multibillion dollar market floors. Why are you even attempting to argue with me here? It's clear I know more, and it's clear I have a career in this field. Why are you just spouting dumb shit?

"Goldman Sachs predicted the virtual and augmented reality market could become an $80 billion industry by 2025, outpacing the TV market in annual revenue. It said the industry could pull in $45 billion in hardware revenue and $35 billion in software by then." - https://www.rt.com/business/378767-virtual-reality-market-growth/

It's hard, I know, you probably win a lot of arguments with your "rapid fire" bullshit, and constant accusations against the other persons credibility. I was under the impression it was common knowledge you aren't anymore near the VR industry, if I'm mistaken, I apologize, you still sound like a complete dolt that has no idea how to incentivize a market.

What does 2025 have to do with...

...the price point at the moment...

??

Nothing, my sweet red-headed stepchild. Nothing at all.

 

[Mookie]

For comparable market saturation. You still aren't getting this.

Are you just going to lie now? I acknowledged that, and said you were incorrect if you think it has to lower it's price to have similar market saturation. Hence the spectated "$80 billion industry by 2025, outpacing the TV market in annual revenue."

You can disagree with that statement, but pretending it doesn't make sense shows a lack of comprehension on your part, not mine.

Doing what? You a VR engineer? You in gaming? I simply don't believe you; someone who perceives $2bn to be a big market.

Developer, engineer, investor among others.

I'll just copy and paste this I guess. This is an incredible market for a new "display", very few things, VERY few things in tech take off like this, and start with multibillion dollar market floors. The fact Facebook spent billions acquiring Oculus along is a testament to this.

"Goldman Sachs predicted the virtual and augmented reality market could become an $80 billion industry by 2025, outpacing the TV market in annual revenue. It said the industry could pull in $45 billion in hardware revenue and $35 billion in software by then." - https://www.rt.com/business/378767-virtual-reality-market-growth/

And can I point something else out? You keep repeating the 2 billion figure like we're still in 2016, and not 2018. That is where it started (and still an amazing start).

Here is an even newer article: https://www.digi-capital.com/news/2...108-billion-vrar-market-by-2021/#.WpY4THdrz9Y which spectates it'll be 108 billion by 2021.

No, I queried for a review of R&D in gaming VR as a percentage of overall R&D (not just to VR, but of gaming itself). You clearly struggle with more complex language.

This must really suck for you. Not *only* did I show you that the majority of the market / R&D is in entertainment / consumer electronics, you outright refused to even acknowledge it.

You ALSO ignored every single link above on HTC Vive R&D, why? Even the one that shows HTC just put 10+ billion into HTC Vive R&D.

Why are you such a slimy fucking person to argue with? This COULD be fun, this could be educational!

The implied argument, which went over your head, is that there is not as much money being pumped into this aspect of VR

Holy. Fuck. Who could ever say that with a straight face? The market floor of two billion was determined by gaming HMD's led by Facebook, HTC / Valve, and now Google, Sony, Microsoft and others you incompetent little monkey.

Nothing, my sweet red-headed stepchild. Nothing at all.

Yeah, well. I'm ready for the next round whenever you are. Making you look like a complete idiot is far more rewarding than I thought it would be.

EDIT: I can't fucking wait for Microsoft to announce their new Xbox VR headset as well, it will drive my points even further home.

 

[Madmick]

Are you just going to lie now? I acknowledged that, and said you were incorrect if you think it has to lower it's price to have similar market saturation. Hence the spectated "$80 billion industry by 2025, outpacing the TV market in annual revenue."

You can disagree with that statement, but pretending it doesn't make sense shows a lack of comprehension on your part, not mine.

Developer, engineer, investor among others.

I'll just copy and paste this I guess. This is an incredible market for a new "display", very few things, VERY few things in tech take off like this, and start with multibillion dollar market floors. The fact Facebook spent billions acquiring Oculus along is a testament to this.

"Goldman Sachs predicted the virtual and augmented reality market could become an $80 billion industry by 2025, outpacing the TV market in annual revenue. It said the industry could pull in $45 billion in hardware revenue and $35 billion in software by then." - https://www.rt.com/business/378767-virtual-reality-market-growth/

And can I point something else out? You keep repeating the 2 billion figure like we're still in 2016, and not 2018. That is where it started (and still an amazing start).

Here is an even newer article: https://www.digi-capital.com/news/2...108-billion-vrar-market-by-2021/#.WpY4THdrz9Y which spectates it'll be 108 billion by 2021.



This must really suck for you. Not *only* did I show you that he vast majority of the market / R&D is in entertainment / consumer electronics, you outright refused to even acknowledge it.

You ALSO ignored every single link above on HTC Vive R&D, why? Even the one that shows HTC just put 10+ billion into HTC Vive R&D.

Why are you such a slimy fucking person to argue with? This COULD be fun, this could be educational!

Holy. Fuck. Who could ever say that with a straight face? The market floor of two billion was determined by gaming HMD's led by Facebook, HTC / Valve, and now Google, Sony, Microsoft and others you incompetent little monkey.



Yeah, well. I'm ready for the next round whenever you are. Making you look like a complete idiot is far more rewarding than I thought it would be.

So many walls of text repeating the same failed arguments.

You continue to talk about future projections as if that has a bearing on the current market. It doesn't, nor do those projections reveal anything to us about the price point of VR headsets or the hardware required to run them at these future dates (phones/tablets will likely be capable for more serious VR, and will form the basis of most VR experiences, such as Facebook AR seeks to implement). It is also completely irrelevant to current saturation of the products at today's price point.

You are completely unfocused and desperate to recover from the staggering ignorance you displayed when you presented a $2bn market as if it were substantial versus a market that in the exact same year (2016) was over $100bn. You're trying to Google-monkey-grab any article you find with projections that are entirely irrelevant to @Treeloy's musing.

 

[Mookie]

So many walls of text repeating the same failed arguments.

You continue to talk about future projections as if that has a bearing on the current market. It doesn't, nor do those projections reveal anything to us about the price point of VR headsets or the hardware required to run them at these future dates (phones/tablets will likely be capable for more serious VR, and will form the basis of most VR experiences, such as Facebook AR seeks to implement). It is also completely irrelevant to current saturation of the products at today's price point.

You are completely unfocused and desperate to recover from the staggering ignorance you displayed when you presented a $2bn market as if it were substantial versus a market that in the exact same year (2016) was over $100bn. You're trying to Google-monkey-grab any article you find with projections that are entirely irrelevant to @Treeloy's musing.

I presented you the entire market, which yes, started in 2016.

I think it's safe to say you're done? You just want to call names? You don't have data? Graphs? Links? Nothing to back up your shit? Weird, I have tons. All of which show the VR market growing, and the largest sections of it driven by gaming HMD's. It's hard, I know, it's been hard for you to hear all of this, you really want to be right, and I partly respect your dedication to bullshit.

Nighty night Mick, I hope you learned something, cheers.

 

[Madmick]

I presented you the entire market, which yes, started in 2016.

I think it's safe to say you're done? You just want to call names? You don't have data? Graphs? Links? Nothing to back up your shit? Weird, I have tons. All of which show the VR market growing, and the largest sections of it driven by gaming HMD's. It's hard, I know, it's been hard for you to hear all of this, you really want to be right, and I partly respect your dedication to bullshit.

Nighty night Mick, I hope you learned something, cheers.

You showed a $2bn market in 2016. The gaming software market (no hardware, not even subtracting VR) was over $100bn in that same year.

This is quite simple:
Virtual Reality Headset Sales Hit 1 Million
That's from November 2017. A whopping 1m headsets sold in total (not just that year). That includes every type.

Now go check out these charts, graphs, links, what have you:
http://www.vgchartz.com/analysis/platform_totals/

• 75.28m PS4s sold.
• 36.56m Xbox Ones sold.
• 14.46m Nintendo Switches sold.

We won't even go into VR-class PCs.

Wrap your head around it. Take your time. You clearly need it.

 

[pinger]

Imagine this stuff in a 100 years.

 

[Mookie]

You showed a $2bn market in 2016. The gaming software market (no hardware, not even subtracting VR) was over $100bn in that same year.

Good job Mickey, you're getting better at this (a joke, because this has nothing to do with the VR market expansion, let alone it's R&D, let alone my point about higher quality products).

The VG industry which started in 1960 (before even) is hitting 100bn in the same year.

The VR industry, which started in 2016, is estimated (by every measurable standard, and the most credible sources in the industry) to hit over 101bn by 2021.

I'm going to let you just sit and read that as many times as you need to.

Take your time, ok?

• 75.28m PS4s sold.
• 36.56m Xbox Ones sold.
• 14.46m Nintendo Switches sold.

I'm well aware of how much the consoles have sold Mickey, I guess what's confusing is that you think this is a relevant argument, or counter point to anything I've said?

 

[Madmick]

Good job Mickey, you're getting better at this (a joke, because this has nothing to do with the VR market expansion, let alone it's R&D, let alone my point about higher quality products).

The VG industry which started in 1960 (before even) is hitting 100bn in the same year.

The VR industry, which started in 2016, is estimated (by every measurable standard, and the most credible sources in the industry) to hit over 101bn by 2021.

I'm going to let you just sit and read that as many times as you need to.

Take your time, ok?

I'm well aware of how much the consoles have sold Mickey, I guess what's confusing is that you think this is a relevant argument, or counter point to anything I've said?

No, you don't get to squirm out now. The inception of these markets has no bearing on the founding matter of dispute, here.

I just got a VR rig(1080, i7 8700 and it is stupidly awesome), i'd be surprised if it doesnt get bigger and better, i just think the price point at the moment is the most prohibitive thing

We are talking about "the moment" i.e. right now. You have been devastated on this point, and have desperately tried to save face based on speculation/projection of future revenues. Now you seek to bargain with equal verve to make it about the history of these markets.

Meanwhile, I read his comment, and made an effort to properly interpret his thought. You should try it. Too late now.

 

[HairdewX]

Been working in the industry for 20+ years, currently working with Robert Scoble, and have been apart of start ups that had rounds funded for more money than you'll ever see in your entire life.

... so you work with this guy?

https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/23...esigns-transformation-group-sexual-harassment

If you really are who you say you are... do the allegations affect your working relationship? How does your association with him affect you and other investment opportunities?

Just curious because I also happen to be in the industry...

 

[Mookie]

We are talking about "the moment" i.e. right now. You have been devastated on this point, and have desperately tried to save face based on speculation/projection of future revenues. Now you seek to bargain with equal verve to make it about the history of these markets.

Zzzzz...

And you're both still wrong? Sorry. In the moment, next year, last year, etc. The thing holding VR back is the functionality of the devices, a lack of incentive to buy them, and lack of developer support (all of which I said need to be improved, before we just drop slashing prices).

 

[Mookie]

... so you work with this guy?

https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/23...esigns-transformation-group-sexual-harassment

If you really are who you say you are... do the allegations affect your working relationship? How does your association with him affect you and other investment opportunities?

Just curious because I also happen to be in the industry...

It's strange, and I can't lie I don't judge him. I've known about Robert, and his drinking for many, many years. I was his friend before we worked together, and I watched his deconversation from Christianity that led to some wild years of his life. That's where "all" of those allegations come from, every single last one. He's a Muslim now, doesn't drink as much, happily married with kids (well, happier) and a lot of that is being put behind him. I'm onboard his new project, as he was removed from TTG.

 

[Madmick]

Zzzzz...

And you're both still wrong? Sorry. In the moment, next year, last year, etc. The thing holding VR back is the functionality of the devices, a lack of incentive to buy them,

The high price to obtain a functional system is also a disincentive (not just a lack of content which is essentially the same point repeated in the following clause).

and lack of developer support (all of which I said need to be improved, before we just drop slashing prices).

The lack of developer support is directly tied to the lack of market saturation...which is in turn tied to the elevated cost. This is why the iPhone, despite being the bestselling phone in the world, and the bestselling singular model, is vastly outnumbered by the billion+ devices that are much more economical.

Hell, the Oculus already slashed its price 33% since it was released just a few years ago. This is going to be a major driver behind its increased presence moving forward.

 

[Mookie]

I am officially done arguing. I don't care who is the perceived winner. I just don't want to do this stressful bullshit anymore. I think you're a cool fucking dude man, and we just don't agree here.

 

[Quipling]

Anyone familiar with the alternatives to the rift and Vive? Microsoft has their "mixed reality" thing with headsets running at around $200-430.


Edit: just got a used Samsung Odyssey for about $270.

 

[jefferz]

Oculus is giving owners a $15 store credit due to an issue the other day. Check your account fellas.