What are Catch Wrestlers like off their backs?

[Rolling Kneebar]

The most famous thing about BJJ is the guard, although with the gi obviously you have a lot more forms of guard available, but it seems like CACC's attitude is basically

and they are all about heavy grinding top pressure and never being on the bottom. So I was just wondering what they can do from there, when they are put there, are they like an overturned tortoise or what.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Every Catch wrestler is different.

Someone like Barnett will be different than someone like F. shamrock who will be different than someone like N. Melenson.

Depends on the rule set, but if you're going to paint it with a broad brush, I would say scrambling!

 

[Uchi Mata]

My experience is limited, but they don't really play guard and seem more inclined to treat open guards as leg locking attack platforms. Sweeping doesn't seem to be nearly as much emphasized as leg locking. Also, Catch guys love to get to turtle and then stand up rather than retain guard BJJ style. Saku did it all the time, he was great at it. It can be a very effective strategy, especially without the gi (which of course Catch doesn't use).

 

[rmongler]

speaking ideally, its a lot easier to escape to the feet than it is to sweep or submit. just watch any Robbie lawler fight, or folkstyle wrestling in general, its hard to keep down someone who has no interest in staying on the ground.

shutting down an opponents game by refusing to even play it is a viable strategy, so you can then focus more on other parts of your game (like your own tds and rides).

 

[HockeyBjj]

They never seem to get put flat onto their back, which should be telling...

 

[yetanother]

You loose in Catch Wrestling when you are on your back.

 

[ijustwannasurf]

I like how Japanese Catch guys play from the bottom; kimura grips, guillotines, leglocks, and takedowns. That immediacy is apparent in guys like Imanari, who may use more positions that are associated with BJJ, but are still very aggressive and submission-oriented.

 

[_Glorfindel_]

Every Catch wrestler is different.

Someone like Barnett will be different than someone like F. shamrock who will be different than someone like N. Melenson.

Depends on the rule set, but if you're going to paint it with a broad brush, I would say scrambling!

You pretty lunch nailed it. That's what our guys do in grappling and mma. Remember the video of one of my guy pro fight? Was taken down, but poped right up

 

[TheGZA]

So I was just wondering what they can do from there, when they are put there, are they like an overturned tortoise or what.

I guess I'll re-post this for those who missed the other thread.

[YT]upFTIXL2KKo[/YT]

 

[Uchi Mata]

The Catch philosophy of not playing off your back, but if forced to either get up or go for a quick submission, is a really effective one for MMA. If you watch even the BJJ guys who have the most success off their backs, they basically either stand up right away or try for a quick sub and if they don't get it work to stand. The idea of slowly working for a sub just gets you beat up against good top players (which everyone in the UFC is, relatively speaking). I really think that unless your goal is gi BJJ competition, developing a very complex open guard is largely a waste of time (unless of course you just enjoy it). Most of the best bottom players in ADCC, MMA, and no-gi in general have very simple but aggressive guards reliant on just a few sweeps and subs, and the ones with good TDs or leg locks will often optimize their guards around either just standing back up or attacking the legs respectively. I think one reason you see Americans and other nationalities catching up faster in no-gi than gi has less to do with wrestling and more to do with the fact that while Brazilians who grew up in the gi often have ridiculous guards and guard passing, in no-gi those skills are less valuable and you can catch them by having a more aggressive TD, leg lock, and what I'll call funk submission game (lots of emphasis on things like the crucifix, front headlock, truck, etc. that are much less utilized in gi BJJ). It's effectively easier to catch up to the Brazilian champs in no-gi because they have less of an edge in technical proficiency, since a major area of their technical skill becomes drastically less useful with the pjs.

 

[DrJitsu]

This was resurrected from another thread and seemed relevant to this, so I thought I'd post it here. Go to about 1:30 to see a sweep from Romulo and then Barnett fight off his back.

[YT]vGsVmUVdroU[/YT]

 

[Title Fight Productions]

This was resurrected from another thread and seemed relevant to this, so I thought I'd post it here. Go to about 1:30 to see a sweep from Romulo and then Barnett fight off his back.

[YT]vGsVmUVdroU[/YT]

What's the story behind the end and outcome of that match?

 

[Steve08]

They don't really play from the back at all. Two catch wrestlers going head to head would likely yield a battle of scrambles and submissions in transition. They do not adhere to the mentality of "one guy plays guard and one guy plays top", and if they do play from their back, it's mainly to attempt standing up, creating a scramble, or attack submissions real fast, more specifically joint locks (armbars, kimuras/double wrist locks, all different kinds of leglocks) over chokes-- though, to my knowledge, RNCs existed in the catch wrestling of antiquity under the name "sleeper hold". But it seems that the heavy focus on blood choking is fairly unique to BJJ.

Catch is basically what you get if wrestling allowed submissions. You never deliberately choose to play from the bottom in wrestling, you are FORCED to play the bottom.

Since you can lose by pin in catch wrestling rules (whether it be 2015 or 1900), you never see guys laying on their back for minutes as you do in BJJ. You'd be far more likely to see a catch wrestler turtle to his knees and then stand up to escape side control as opposed to reguarding. As Uchi Mata said, they will only play from the back if FORCED to, and if they are they won't spend much time there if they can help it.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Apparently from that thread about the Choque book that chronicles the very early days of the Gracies, Helio, Carlos, and George etc, they trained much with the catch as catch can wrestlers of the time. And they seemed to have gotten much of their guard play from them. Or else I my reading comp lapsed for a brief moment.

 

[Nut Shell]

One is ok and the second one is slightly worse.

That covers the CACC community.

 

[rmongler]

the ban on chokes looks like something unique to the Lancashire guys as far as I see. American and carnival wrestlers all used chokes, that how strangler lewis (both of them even) got his nickname after all.

 

[FATC]

In catch wrestling:

[YT]3tuGxywtrtg[/YT]

In a grappling tournament:

[YT]qExODfMXpxs[/YT]

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Another characteristic of my Catch trainng is to invite or bait the pass to set up the scramble. It's a lot easier to scramble up from under sidecontrol than it is with someone in your guard/half guard.

 

[stinkoman]

speaking ideally, its a lot easier to escape to the feet than it is to sweep or submit. just watch any Robbie lawler fight, or folkstyle wrestling in general, its hard to keep down someone who has no interest in staying on the ground.

I agree with you that is a lot easier to escape to the feet than to sweep or submit. Their is quiet a plethora of ways to do it. But in BJJ you can't disengage and stand as its considered stalling, and you get no points for escaping so people aren't really ingrained to do it or know all the tricks to doing it. I think this is one of the better approaches to grappling in MMA IMO.

 

[stinkoman]

I guess I'll re-post this for those who missed the other thread.

[YT]upFTIXL2KKo[/YT]

I don't think that match is a good example as catch wrestler off hisback. That was 15 years ago in 2000 and Josh started training with with Billy Robinson and Catch until 2003.