What Gun/s Are The Most Practical To Own?

[Urban]

In the interest of updating my recommendations based on new finding I was reading an article today on best choices for ammunition based on the FBI's ballistics research (article here) and I have to admit that based on their findings and their testing parameters (12" of penetration in ballistics gel) an AR-15 isn't a bad way to go. An ak or sks (or anything that fires the 7.62x31 round) is conceivably one of the worst regarding over-penetration, which is another eye opener since I was considering a bullpup sks as a superior close quarters carbine, when it looks like that's simply not true when you have to consider shooting through your target.

Whats more, for shotgun loads 00 buck is probably considerably less lethal than #1 buck which is probably your most lethal home defense round due to both the number of penetrations, diffusion of energy into the target, and minimized risk of over penetration. I'll be changing out my home defense ammo as a result of this article. Not that 00 buck is a bad way to go, but why settle for second best?

Edited to add: this was based on the FBI's research, the FBI's research also concluded that the obscure 10mm was the best sidearm caliber for their agents. So your own conclusions can be drawn from the research that is presented.

 

[hunto]

In the interest of updating my recommendations based on new finding I was reading an article today on best choices for ammunition based on the FBI's ballistics research (article here) and I have to admit that based on their findings and their testing parameters (12" of penetration in ballistics gel) an AR-15 isn't a bad way to go. An ak or sks (or anything that fires the 7.62x31 round) is conceivably one of the worst regarding over-penetration, which is another eye opener since I was considering a bullpup sks as a superior close quarters carbine, when it looks like that's simply not true when you have to consider shooting through your target.

Whats more, for shotgun loads 00 buck is probably considerably less lethal than #1 buck which is probably your most lethal home defense round due to both the number of penetrations, diffusion of energy into the target, and minimized risk of over penetration. I'll be changing out my home defense ammo as a result of this article. Not that 00 buck is a bad way to go, but why settle for second best?

Edited to add: this was based on the FBI's research, the FBI's research also concluded that the obscure 10mm was the best sidearm caliber for their agents. So your own conclusions can be drawn from the research that is presented.

Those wound profile pics are based on FMJ rounds, which are mandatory for armed forces. You, as a citizen, can use other types of ammunition not prohibited by the Geneva or Hague conventions, such as SP or HP.
Look at the wound profile of the 'commercial 123 gr JSP', 4th down in this pic:

It differs greatly from the others in that pic, as they are all FMJ designs. An AK in 7.62x39 with commercial SP or HP ammo would be great for HD. SKS is all right, but there was a reason the Russians superseded the SKS platform with the Kalashnikov. But a bullpup SKS would be cool too.
That said, my AK74 is 5.45x39 caliber. I prefer it because the ammo is cheap, and so practice is cheap too. The FMJ rounds are deadly, and don't rely on fragmentation to do damage; they tumble, like the Brit .303, due to a hollow-nose.


Here is an interesting read on wound profiles:
Terminal ballistics as viewed in a morgue

 

[Urban]

What do you think of their assessment of shotgun ammo? Seems logical to me that the smallest pellets that meet their minimum of penetration would have the greatest combined pellet diameter and thus greatest lethality.

 

[hunto]

What do you think of their assessment of shotgun ammo? Seems logical to me that the smallest pellets that meet their minimum of penetration would have the greatest combined pellet diameter and thus greatest lethality.

In the Morgue article I linked to, the guy starts off by saying that he prefers "slow and heavy to fast and light." There is the crux of most debate on ammo on the 'Net. 12 gage shotguns have been used since WW1 with enormous success, and the ubiquitous 00 buck round has always been the preferred load for human-sized targets. I would use whats been proven- 00 buck is a .32 cal ball, vs #1, which is .22 cal. My primary concern, if I have to pull a gun, is stopping the threat. Over-penetration is a secondary or tertiary concern at that moment. That said, #1 buck has it's proponents, and there's also a buck-and-ball load for 12 ga that looks interesting. One .65" lead ball followed by six #1 Buck pellets.
AMM-823 - Ammo 12 Gauge Centurion 2-3/4" Buck and Ball 1300 fps 6 Buckshot Plus a .65" Ball 10 Round Box

 

[lildog]

In the Morgue article I linked to, the guy starts off by saying that he prefers "slow and heavy to fast and light." There is the crux of most debate on ammo on the 'Net. 12 gage shotguns have been used since WW1 with enormous success, and the ubiquitous 00 buck round has always been the preferred load for human-sized targets. I would use whats been proven- 00 buck is a .32 cal ball, vs #1, which is .22 cal. My primary concern, if I have to pull a gun, is stopping the threat. Over-penetration is a secondary or tertiary concern at that moment. That said, #1 buck has it's proponents, and there's also a buck-and-ball load for 12 ga that looks interesting. One .65" lead ball followed by six #1 Buck pellets.
AMM-823 - Ammo 12 Gauge Centurion 2-3/4" Buck and Ball 1300 fps 6 Buckshot Plus a .65" Ball 10 Round Box

The rounds in that pic look nasty...interesting

 

[corporateslave]

Thanks for the links guys. That buck and ball round looks deadly.

Although I still prefer my pistol from home defense, my shotgun is loaded with 00 buck just in case. I have always heard 00 buck was the best for HD and never bothered to do much research for myself. After reading the link Urban provided I decided to look into it more and found this:

Shotgunworld.com • View topic - #4 vs #1 Buckshot

Peter Capstick said this about buckshot selection in Death in the Dark Continent

"I would like to mention one very important factor in choosing a buckshot load for dangerous game, and that concerns shot size selection. Most people would automatically pick 00 buck simply becuause it's so well know through TV westerns. In fact, the 12-pellet 12-gauge "baby magnum" load of 00 is considerably inferior to the same maximum powder loading of small NO. 1 buckshot in the same shell. The difference lies in the simple and astonishingly obvious fact that at .33 caliber, 00 buck is so large in the shell that there is much wasted space that could otherwise be filled with lead if the bearing surfaces of the big, round pellets didn't have to come into contact with each other. But they must. No. 1 buck is .30 caliber, only ten percent less in diameter than 00 buck and but thirteen grains per pellet lighter. However, because of the way the pellet mass fits into the shotshell, the same shell can fire an incredible seventy-five percent more pellets than the Magnum 00 load! What this means is that when you need help in a big way, you're launching eight hundred grains of lead at better than three thousand foot-pounds at the muzzle with No. 1 buck compared with a bit over six hundred grains and not quite twenty-four hundred foot-pounds with the 00 buck. If you don't reckon that can make a significant difference, you've never had something try to eat you.

One might also bear in mind that eight hundred grains of lead in a swarm has the individual pellet impact area of an umbrella, for even though still in a solid mass at more or less ten yards, it covers a circular saturation point of about a 7-inch circle. Eight hundred grains, remember, equals a .458 PLUS a .375 at point blank, and you've got two barrels of the stuff, minimum."

I feel this makes an even more compelling argument for the use of #1 buckshot. I will definitely be switching.

 

[hunto]

I stand corrected- #1 buck is .30, not .22, as I had posted before.

 

[LGK]

Thanks for the links guys. That buck and ball round looks deadly.

Although I still prefer my pistol from home defense, my shotgun is loaded with 00 buck just in case. I have always heard 00 buck was the best for HD and never bothered to do much research for myself. After reading the link Urban provided I decided to look into it more and found this:

Shotgunworld.com • View topic - #4 vs #1 Buckshot


I feel this makes an even more compelling argument for the use of #1 buckshot. I will definitely be switching.

Energy is only one number in the scheme of external ballistics. Velocity, drag coefficients, recoil, etc. all play a role in effectiveness. Greater overall mass means less velocity, reduced weight per pellet means less penetration. I would like to see penetration tests to see the effectiveness of this load.

 

[RAZOR1]

000 Buck out of a 20" barrel is good enough for me, regardless of what the FBI puts out there.

As for the original question a Glock in any of the major calibers mated to a reliable Shotgun is ridiculously effective as evidenced by every law enforcement agent since the 1897 Winchester came out will attest.

Within 50 yards, thank the good lord and pack your lunch.

 

[RAZOR1]

In the interest of updating my recommendations based on new finding I was reading an article today on best choices for ammunition based on the FBI's ballistics research (article here) and I have to admit that based on their findings and their testing parameters (12" of penetration in ballistics gel) an AR-15 isn't a bad way to go. An ak or sks (or anything that fires the 7.62x31 round) is conceivably one of the worst regarding over-penetration, which is another eye opener since I was considering a bullpup sks as a superior close quarters carbine, when it looks like that's simply not true when you have to consider shooting through your target.

Whats more, for shotgun loads 00 buck is probably considerably less lethal than #1 buck which is probably your most lethal home defense round due to both the number of penetrations, diffusion of energy into the target, and minimized risk of over penetration. I'll be changing out my home defense ammo as a result of this article. Not that 00 buck is a bad way to go, but why settle for second best?

Edited to add: this was based on the FBI's research, the FBI's research also concluded that the obscure 10mm was the best sidearm caliber for their agents. So your own conclusions can be drawn from the research that is presented.

Here is a good piece of information before you go changing the curtains...

The Home Defense Shotgun | Personal Defense

 

[corporateslave]

Here is a good piece of information before you go changing the curtains...

The Home Defense Shotgun | Personal Defense

That article offers no info other than the author saying "I feel this is best"... not really a compelling argument.

 

[hunto]

That article offers no info other than the author saying "I feel this is best"... not really a compelling argument.

Penetration relies on individual projectile mass, so the total weight, while impressive, and which will no doubt do great damage, may or may not penetrate enough to stop the threat. Stopping the threat is the primary purpose of defensive firearms- as soon as possible. Causing a horrific injury is not the aim here- rather, the situation has dictated the use of a firearm to protect property or lives- so it is paramount that the rounds we choose to fire will stop the threat. Since the head is a small target, and may be moving and thus hard to hit, center-mass shots are recommended. In that target area, shots to the heart, liver, or spinal cord, will result in near-instant incapacitation. We want to poke deep holes in vital organs to shut them down- blood loss does not incapacitate quickly enough- ask any hunter who's had to track down game. Poking those holes requires penetration, and that requires a projectile with mass.
According to Wiki...
Lead shot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
00 is.33 cal, 53 gr each.
0 is .32 cal, 49 gr
#1 .30 cal 40 gr
#4 .24 cal 20 gr

At 1300 FPS that single 00 pellet has about 200 ft lbs of muzzle energy; at 1800 fps, 380. Will it penetrate deeply enough to hit something vital? History says it will, as shown by the countless stories of people shot with 00 buckshot.
Will a #1 pellet penetrate deeply enough? Think about it like this; would you shoot at a deer with a .30 cal rifle loaded with 40 gr round balls going 1300fps? No way, it would be illegal. And #4, a 20 gr .24 cal ball does not have the necessary mass to penetrate deeply enough to hit something vital. It doesn't matter if 1 or 24 comes out- the penetration is the same, and so the stopping power is the same. You wouldn't use a .22 Long Rifle for home defense would you? Even if it had 6 barrels that fired at once, or 12? The bullets would penetrate the same, so you just be making more shallow holes. (.22LR bullets run between 36-40 gr.)

just my $.02...

edit to add: and it is just an opinion. Slow/heavy vs light/fast is the most debated topic of ballistics on the Internet....

 

[corporateslave]

According to the article Urban posted:

"Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. "

I tend to believe that 12 inches of penetration is enough to stop a threat. Being able to get 12 inches of penetration over a wider area increases the chances of hitting vital organs. Also, the quote I posted is from Peter Capstick, famous for hunting maneating predators in Africa. If it can stop a 500 lb lion I think it can stop a man. Remember we are talking about home defense here, not shooting a deer at 100-500 yards. Additionally, even 55/62 grain bullets from a .223/5.56 platform are not generally considered to be sufficient for deer hunting. If we were to use deer hunting rounds for home defense, we would all be using .308 150+gr bullets that would shoot through your intruder and then go through the walls of the next 4 houses.

If penetration was as big of a concern as you make it out to be, then no one would consider JHP bullets to be better man stoppers than FMJ rounds. I will stick with the JHPs in my home defense pistol.

 

[hunto]

According to the article Urban posted:

"Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. "

I tend to believe that 12 inches of penetration is enough to stop a threat. Being able to get 12 inches of penetration over a wider area increases the chances of hitting vital organs. Also, the quote I posted is from Peter Capstick, famous for hunting maneating predators in Africa. If it can stop a 500 lb lion I think it can stop a man. Remember we are talking about home defense here, not shooting a deer at 100-500 yards. Additionally, even 55/62 grain bullets from a .223/5.56 platform are not generally considered to be sufficient for deer hunting. If we were to use deer hunting rounds for home defense, we would all be using .308 150+gr bullets that would shoot through your intruder and then go through the walls of the next 4 houses.

If penetration was as big of a concern as you make it out to be, then no one would consider JHP bullets to be better man stoppers than FMJ rounds. I will stick with the JHPs in my home defense pistol.

I used deer as an example because typically they're human sized.
.223 isn't necessarily a good deer round, but it works for SD. Why? Inside of 100 yards, it fragments- but also, follow-up shots are easy due to lack of recoil. I'd still want something bigger than .223 though, for HD- again, it's about stopping the threat quickly.
Penetration is only part of the concern. JHP is not the holy grail of bullets- they are a compromise designed to prevent the round from exiting the bad-guy. The ideal profile for a SD bullet is arguably the wadcutter. It cuts a caliber-sized hole of tissue without pushing it away like a round-nose or hollowpoint can. But wadcutters exit bodies, so JHPs were designed to put the brakes on those bullets. However, the expansion that prevents them from exiting also limits penetration, and thus the dilemma I described above- penetration or expansion? I take penetration, as expansion can be questionable. Suppose it expands and doesn't penetrate enough? A heavy, slow wadcutter will plow right through 20+" of gelatin- enough to exit a bad guy leaving 2 holes. It won't stop short of the heart, like a bullet did in the famous FBI shootout that led to new cartridge protocols. An FBI agent hit a BG in the chest, with a JHP from his .38, and the round expanded as designed, but stopped an inch or so short of the BGs heart- and the BG continued firing.

But that's why I said this is a much debated topic.....

:icon_chee

 

[Urban]

I think we can go back and forth about what's best, but the truth is, you unload .223, 9mm, 45 acp, hell even bird shot on your average intruder and you're going to do two things:

- make them shit themselves
- follow up with a second shot (at least)

It's about what works best for you and what you're most comfortable with. Best has nothing do to with it really. If you can hit somebody 10 times with a .22 it's better than zero times with a 45. Use what you can shoot best.

... That being said, i did change out my HD load in my 870 to #1 buck. cause why not?

 

[My Spot]

A 9mm Glock is imo the most practical gun to own (preferably the 19). I think it's the best all-around handgun for everything.

 

[Grassshoppa]

Best home defense will be the Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 with tactical buckshot. You'll likely neutralize the threat (hit the target) while under stress, whereas you may miss at 5 feet with a handgun if you've never engaged under adrenaline.

You'll also minimize your legal liability because the shotgun's rounds aren't going to penetrate your neighbor's house and kill their kid. Your .308 battle rifle or handgun can easily penetrate drywall so it depends on the proximity of your neighbors.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[Nick063]

I've had a glock 45 gap for self defense but i questioned my accuracy in the middle of the night so i got a mossberg 500 and i sleep soundly

 

[Brian C]

A 9mm Glock is imo the most practical gun to own (preferably the 19). I think it's the best all-around handgun for everything.

Most guys at classes are either going to be shooting 9mm Glocks like the 19/17 or now M&P's. Unless you go to a .mil/LE class where guys have more strict guidelines as to what they can shoot/carry for duty.

 

[EchoBoomer]

I feel the one of the most important things win considering "stopping power" is whether or not the bad guy will notice he has been shot. Now a lot of you might think "wtf?", but I have heard many times from friends that have served in the MIL/LE that have been shot and shot someone, including my own father. That most bad guys, unless you hit them with a heavy round, will not notice they have been shot and will keep fighting until they go into shock. Especially, if you are in a gunfight or dealing with someone that is desensitized to violence.

Now with that said, my uncle is a Los Angeles bulldog, my father and almost 95% of the males in my family are veterans, and they all prefer a 45 for home defense. The reason being if you are hit square with a 45, even the big guys, will know they have been shot and the psychological advantages this gives you in a fight are worth mentioning. Unless the guy is Rambo, he is gonna start thinking he already lost/ is dead.

Now say what you will, but I personally find a 45 round not only a lot more intimidating, but also comforting.

As far as a 12 gauge goes, you hit some one square with that...they are dead. Anyone who has ever shot one knows what I am talking about, just pure power.

Just my 2c, I felt that this wasn't discussed.