Opinion What will it take to bring both sides of the country together?

[SakurabasEar]

America is large and diverse

As much as diversity is said to be a good thing, it's not if your trying to achieve solidarity. What's brought us together before was usually always some kind of war, and even then its later served to splinter us more.

The only nationalism I've seen in my life was post 9/11. And even that was achieved on bsing the public

 

[Jack V Savage]

I can't tell if you're fucking with me or not with this and if I really have to spend the time giving a detailed response here

I mean, I would hope you know that the percentage of the population in the bottom 25% is the same over time. I pointed out earlier that lower wages have been rising faster in the past few years.

 

[blaseblase]

Yeah, him plagiarizing a speech is a scandal, just like his daughter owing 5k in taxes makes her a criminal

That gif isn't appropriate here. He literally dropped out of the presidential race because of it. Please explain how that isnt a scandal. Do you have some special definition of the term scandal that the rest of us aren't privy to?

No, in the era of presidents stacking their administration with their children, and using the white house to rake in hundreds of millions of dollars for their businesses, while anti-gay politicians get caught sucking cock in bathrooms, and supreme court justices are exposed for taking massive bribes, plagiarizing a speech does not qualify as a scandal. It's all relative. It may have been a scandal at that time, back when there was still a semblance of decorum and decency in government. But relative to today, you are a clown if you are citing that as a "scandal" by modern standards.

Again, it was a scandal that caused him to drop out of the race. It was literally a scandal. It destroyed his presidential run. You're wrong. Deal with it.

How can you say his stance on segregation back in the day was a "scandal" when virtually everyone at the time agreed with his racist sentiments? Oh yeah, it's so scandalous for him to say something that everyone agreed with at the time.

Lol sure bro, "everyone agreed". Are the Klansmen he worked with running for president?

Lastly, you keep implying that I'm a big lover of Joe Biden. I'm not. He's just vastly superior to the fascist demon that is in the process of being criminally prosecuted for attempting to overthrow the government.

You're the one defending him. I'm pointing out he's a shitty candidate with a long and documented history of racism. If you dont want Trump to be president again you should be agreeing with me. Biden running again is the reason Trump is ahead in the polls. The country would be better off with both of them dead.

 

[Jack V Savage]

You're the one defending him. I'm pointing out he's a shitty candidate with a long and documented history of racism. If you dont want Trump to be president again you should be agreeing with me. Biden running again is the reason Trump is ahead in the polls. The country would be better off with both of them dead.

What you "pointed out" was a absurd false equivalence. Trump calls his opposition vermin, tries to silence critics, tried to coerce a foreign leader into smearing his opponent, etc. It's almost comically divisive. Biden ... is old, didn't properly cite a quote when he was a freshman in law school, and didn't support busing policies in the '70s.

 

[blackheart]

I mean, I would hope you know that the percentage of the population in the bottom 25% is the same over time. I pointed out earlier that lower wages have been rising faster in the past few years.

That's a response to an argument I didn't make. I didn't say "more people are in the bottom 25% of earners". I said -
"a higher % of people in this country are now toward the lower end of the economic ladder rather than the middle", which is true.

Source: PEW Research

A simple mistake on your part, I assume

 

[Jack V Savage]

That's a response to an argument I didn't make. I didn't say "more people are in the bottom 25% of earners". I said -
"a higher % of people in this country are now toward the lower end of the economic ladder rather than the middle", which is true.

Source: PEW Research

A simple mistake on your part, I assume

What year do you think it is?

 

[blackheart]

That gif isn't appropriate here. He literally dropped out of the presidential race because of it. Please explain how that isnt a scandal. Do you have some special definition of the term scandal that the rest of us aren't privy to?

You're right, plagiarizing a college paper is the scandal of the century. I change my position.

Again, it was a scandal that caused him to drop out of the race. It was literally a scandal. It destroyed his presidential run. You're wrong. Deal with it.

You keep ignoring any and all discussion about context and relativity. Yes, at the time it was a scandal. In 2023 it is not a scandal. Deal with it.

Lol sure bro, "everyone agreed". Are the Klansmen he worked with running for president?


You're the one defending him. I'm pointing out he's a shitty candidate with a long and documented history of racism. If you dont want Trump to be president again you should be agreeing with me. Biden running again is the reason Trump is ahead in the polls. The country would be better off with both of them dead.

I don't want Trump to be president, and Biden wouldn't even be in my top 10 picks. But I don't have a choice there. He is the incumbent president and will receive his party's nomination. All that's left is ensuring that the fascist ego-maniac doesn't get back in power.

 

[blackheart]

What year do you think it is?

You can just own your mistake. Unless you were just being dishonest with how you re-framed my point playing percentage games.

And it's 1984, obviously.

 

[blaseblase]

What you "pointed out" was a absurd false equivalence. Trump calls his opposition vermin, tries to silence critics, tried to coerce a foreign leader into smearing his opponent, etc. It's almost comically divisive. Biden ... is old, didn't properly cite a quote when he was a freshman in law school, and didn't support busing policies in the '70s.

Lol at "Didn't properly cite a quote". You mean stole his speeches? Just say it.

You want a guy who supported segregation, opposed abortion, and worked with KKK members to pass their bills to be president. Just acknowledge it.

Oh I forgot to mention, also the guy who got Clarence Thomas onto the Supreme Court and told Anita Hill to fuck off. Are you sure you're on the left?

 

[Jack V Savage]

You can just own your mistake. Unless you were just being dishonest with how you re-framed my point playing percentage games.

And it's 1984, obviously.

It was a joke, but one that made a point, which is that growth has been stronger among poorer people (and thus the original point, which side-stepped my point, was wrong).

 

[Jack V Savage]

Lol at "Didn't properly cite a quote". You mean stole his speeches? Just say it.

I mean didn't properly do citations. More than a quote. Long passage quoted without proper citation as a freshman in law school. If you're claiming to think that's equivalently divisive as Trump's actions and comments, I don't believe you.

You want a guy who supported segregation, opposed abortion, and worked with KKK members to pass their bills to be president. Just acknowledge it.

Oh I forgot to mention, also the guy who got Clarence Thomas onto the Supreme Court and told Anita Hill to fuck off. Are you sure you're on the left?

So your view is that Republicans hate Biden because he's too conservative? If he died, Democrats would replace him with someone further left who Republicans would be OK with?

 

[My name is]

Just be around each other. I think a majority of people can relate and put their differences aside. The only thing really pushing us into thinking only one can exist is the media. They just speak for a small percentage of the extreme ends and convince everyone in the middle that it's a bigger problem then it really is. So change the media and don't get rid of friends and family because of their view on abortion

 

[blackheart]

It was a joke, but one that made a point, which is that growth has been stronger among poorer people (and thus the original point, which side-stepped my point, was wrong).

All good. Have to say your humor is as dry as the Sahara ol' Jack, lol.

Again, that is one way to frame the economic data you're talking about. Another is that a larger percentage of the population is now towards the lower end of the economic ladder than in previous decades.

 

[Jack V Savage]

All good. Have to say your humor is as dry as the Sahara ol' Jack, lol.

Again, that is one way to frame the economic data you're talking about. Another is that a larger percentage of the population is now towards the lower end of the economic ladder than in previous decades.

Well, median growth has been good, but growth has been stronger below the median. I think in general, the left has a problem acknowledging progress because it looks like complacency. But I think it should be possible to both notice that things are getting better and still want them to improve. You have to notice so you can see what the right path is. That applies to a lot of issues--not just economics.

 

[blackheart]

Well, median growth has been good, but growth has been stronger below the median. I think in general, the left has a problem acknowledging progress because it looks like complacency. But I think it should be possible to both notice that things are getting better and still want them to improve. You have to notice so you can see what the right path is. That applies to a lot of issues--not just economics.

Another thing that the left struggles with is optics - like the optics of celebrating tiny marginal growth in wages for the poorest of people, while the overall economic picture is really bleak for most middle and low income Americans.

Housing affordability, healthcare affordability and access, average savings, childcare costs, and many other important macro-economic indicators, are doing very, very poorly right now.

What you're talking about is like celebrating the plugging of a quarter sized hole on your boat, while half of the boat is blown off.

I have a bit of a personal question, but it would help me to understand why it feels that you're so disconnected from how badly people are struggling. If you don't want to answer publicly you can dm me, but if you don't want to answer at all, that's cool too.

You're a really sharp dude. I assume that you're fairly well off financially and own a home. Would you mind telling me what you purchased your first home for? If not, can you tell me the average home price in the year that you bought your home? And would you mind telling me the general ballpark of what you were earning the year that you purchased that home?

I have a professional salaried career in management for an IP and tech company. I manage a global analyst team and my client is one of the biggest toy makers in the world. They had a really popular movie come out this summer. My company is owned by one of the largest hedge funds in the world. 20 years ago my salary would have provided me a comfortable life. Now, in the 2020s, my salary doesn't pay me enough to comfortably afford the average 1 bedroom apartment in the US ($1500/month) - let alone buy a home, which go for $600,000 on average in my city. Let alone save for vacation, or even have savings in general. Let alone pay off my student debt. Let alone start a family.

So you're going to have to forgive me, and other leftists, for not celebrating the tiniest growth in wages for the very poorest, which were largely erased by inflation anyways. People are struggling, very, very badly. You need to be able to control for your own wealth and how much that insulates you from the material realities being faced by people that are not well-off. This is something I routinely see liberals struggle with. "GDP is up!! Why are people so unhappy?!" Ezra Klein somewhere, I'm sure.

 

[brothir]

Another thing that the left struggles with is optics - like the optics of celebrating tiny marginal growth in wages for the poorest of people, while the overall economic picture is really bleak for most middle and low income Americans.

Housing affordability, healthcare affordability and access, average savings, childcare costs, and many other important macro-economic indicators, are doing very, very poorly right now.

I don't see how that's coherent given there has been a good recovery from the downturn caused by COVID. When were things looking up if not now, and by what standard?

 

[blackheart]

I don't see how that's coherent given there has been a good recovery from the downturn caused by COVID. When were things looking up if not now, and by what standard?

Bro, literally what universe are you living in?

Super rich’s wealth concentration surpasses Gilded Age levels

America's richest of the rich just passed the Rockefeller-Carnegie cohort in wealth concentration, according to Berkeley economist Gabriel Zucman.

finance.yahoo.com

Income inequality has surpassed the levels of the gilded age.

60,000 Americans die EVERY YEAR because they're too poor to afford healthcare

Average home prices jumped over 100,000 dollars in just a few years.

Like literally, what universe are you living in bro where things are going good????

The year my dad bought his first home, a new home, it cost him $21,000. That comes out to like $104,000 in today's dollars. He did that on a salary equivalent to $44,000 in today's dollars. I now out earn what my father did at this point in his life. But meanwhile, the average US home price is $500,000 - 600k in my city. That's 5-6x what he paid, AFTER adjusting for inflation. You can't even buy a plot of land for 100k.

Most Americans don't have $400 for emergency expenses. What universe are you and Jack living in where things are great? Is this a universe behind a gated community, where you never have to leave and see the realities of what is going on in this country?

 

[ferrisjso]

Bro, literally what universe are you living in?

Super rich’s wealth concentration surpasses Gilded Age levels

America's richest of the rich just passed the Rockefeller-Carnegie cohort in wealth concentration, according to Berkeley economist Gabriel Zucman.

finance.yahoo.com

Income inequality has surpassed the levels of the gilded age.

60,000 Americans die EVERY YEAR because they're too poor to afford healthcare

Average home prices jumped over 100,000 dollars in just a few years.

Like literally, what universe are you living in bro where things are going good????

The year my dad bought his first home, a new home, it cost him $21,000. That comes out to like $104,000 in today's dollars. He did that on a salary equivalent to $44,000 in today's dollars. I now out earn what my father did at this point in his life. But meanwhile, the average US home price is $500,000 - 600k in my city. That's 5-6x what he paid, AFTER adjusting for inflation. You can't even buy a plot of land for 100k.

Most Americans don't have $400 for emergency expenses. What universe are you and Jack living in where things are great? Is this a universe behind a gated community, where you never have to leave and see the realities of what is going on in this country?

Its 68,000 Americans who are murdered by the insurance industry. Not 60,000. And that study was done pre pandemic who knows what the real number is now could be pushing 100k. The original count from the 2000s was at 45,000.

 

[brothir]

Bro, literally what universe are you living in?

Income inequality has surpassed the levels of the gilded age.

60,000 Americans die EVERY YEAR because they're too poor to afford healthcare

Average home prices jumped over 100,000 dollars in just a few years.

Like literally, what universe are you living in bro where things are going good????

The year my dad bought his first home, a new home, it cost him $21,000. That comes out to like $104,000 in today's dollars. He did that on a salary equivalent to $44,000 in today's dollars. I now out earn what my father did at this point in his life. But meanwhile, the average US home price is $500,000 - 600k in my city. That's 5-6x what he paid, AFTER adjusting for inflation. You can't even buy a plot of land for 100k.

Most Americans don't have $400 for emergency expenses. What universe are you and Jack living in where things are great? Is this a universe behind a gated community, where you never have to leave and see the realities of what is going on in this country?

I live in the same universe as you do, actually. Income inequality is relative, but the argument that things have gotten better is that absolute wealth is up over the entire spectrum. That's not an excuse for the inequality, by the way, but simply measuring inequality can't demonstrate that things are actually worse.

And how many Americans used to die because they couldn't afford healthcare? Here it's the opposite problem of using an absolute number: the population has increased, so there's generally more of everything. What's the rate of death now compared to before? Is it higher?

And then you use an anecdote, which cannot factually demonstrate anything. Is home-ownership by percentage meaningfully down?

GDP is up and employment is high. That's a very strong case that things are going well. Since things aren't going well now in your opinion, when were things better and why?

 

[blackheart]

I live in the same universe as you do, actually. Income inequality is relative, but the argument that things have gotten better is that absolute wealth is up over the entire spectrum. That's not an excuse for the inequality, by the way, but simply measuring inequality can't demonstrate that things are actually worse.

Wealth/income inequality is a massively important macro-economic indicator that has far reaching impacts on the overall health of an economy. No, it isn't everything. But it goes to demonstrate how absurd your claim is that things are good right now, while economic inequality has literally surpassed that of the Gilded age.

And how many Americans used to die because they couldn't afford healthcare? Here it's the opposite problem of using an absolute number: the population has increased, so there's generally more of everything. What's the rate of death now compared to before? Is it higher?

Do you know how many people die in the rest of the developed world because they're too poor to afford healthcare? Zero or near zero. If you only want to compare America against itself on this issue, then you're reducing the argument to a point where you win. But that's not what I do - I compare America against its peers. No one should be dying because they can't afford healthcare in the wealthiest nation in the history of mankind.

And then you use an anecdote, which cannot factually demonstrate anything. Is home-ownership by percentage meaningfully down?

Actually, it's an anecdote that perfectly demonstrates the plight of the American middle class in 2023, and its an anecdote that is supported in the economic data - wages in this country have been flat for 50 years, while the relative costs of the most important things in life (healthcare, housing, childcare, education) have exploded out of control.

GDP is up and employment is high. That's a very strong case that things are going well. Since things aren't going well now in your opinion, when were things better and why?

GDP being up does not matter. It's about how that wealth is being distributed. If tomorrow, Elon Musk makes 5 trillion dollars and stores it in the Cayman islands, what does it matter? OMG GDP is up 5 trillion dollars?! Why aren't you happy? Oh, because that 5 trillion dollars didn't do anything for anyone. All it is is a big number. That's an extreme theoretical but it demonstrates what is happening in this economy. Virtually all of the GDP gains are concentrated into the hands of a tiny few, who horde that wealth.

Liberal gaslighting is insane man. The economic indicators are overwhelming - childcare costs, housing costs, wealth inequality surpassing the gilded age, average savings, and you're like completely unable to understand what I'm even saying.

I posted economic data earlier in this thread showing that the number of adults in the US earning a middle income, dropped from 60% in 1971 to just under 50% in 2015. Are you going to again come back and say "but when were things better???"