When Jiu-Jitsu becomes an Olympic Sport, it Won’t be called Jiu-Jitsu

Restarts and stall calling are because of what the IOC wants from grappling sports - action. That is something that wrestling constantly had/has to deal with. The IOC pretty much believes sports fans are too dumb to follow how wrestling is scored - "It is confusing" - they definitely must have the same impression about bjj/submiss+ion grappling, actually probably even more so given the gauging of when a submission is close or not.
 
Given the Olympics already have judo, freestyle wrestling & greco roman wrestling, I doubt the IOC will let in another grappling sport.
The IOC has denied entry of a 2nd striking art - Karate - to join TKD. (Still don't know why they don't just have a standup martial art competition that would encompass TKD, Karate, etc athletes).

I'd like to see another grappling sport or at least an expansion of the number of competitors allowed in the existing 3 especially given swimming gets to have races in 4 different strokes & a race combining all four (I thought the purpose of a race was to cover the distance the fastest, contesting it in slower methods is like Track & Field also holding sprints in backwards running, skipping, bear crawls...).
 
Uchi Mata said:
If you're someone who is good enough to compete at the Olympic level in a sport, you're good enough to train with all submissions being legal including heel hooks. To take them away neuters the leg lock game in a way I consider unacceptable at the highest levels of the sport (which presumably is what UWW would want their Olympic grappling style to be). Pretending that the Olympics are 'amateur' in the same way as a local tournament is silly. I don't have a problem with restricting heel hooks for juniors, whatever the wrestling equivalent of lower belts would be, etc. But for people who have trained for many years and are extremely competent at their sport such that they're contending for Olympic spots, they should be able to handle it.

I've been training since ~2002 and I've never been hurt or seen someone hurt in the gym by heel hooks in the context of two experienced, safe guys rolling with them. The only injuries I've seen from heel hooks have been inexperienced guys (usually MMA fighters) throwing them on too fast against people without enough experience to know when they were in trouble. So while I do think that heel hooks can be trained safely, I'll allow that it requires a higher degree of grappling expertise to do so than many noobs possess.
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>>in the context of two experienced, safe guys rolling with them
lol. That almost never happens. There's always at least one less than experienced or maybe trigger-happy or maybe just too strong and too eager. Or maybe you just relax for a second and your ACL is gone for good. And we aren't talking about olympic level- Olympics is amateur! Most of guys who compete at olympic sports are kids or students- most younger than 23. Olympics start from local tournaments, from school kids. It IS amateur. Only few continue beyond this point and get to the top. And you want them to risk their health for few guys to enjoy full-scale leglock war? I guess we are lucky people in UWW know better than that.
I'm never going to be in the Olympics but I still want to enjoy grappling and enjoy having my ACL intact. For people like you there are enough federations who condone heelhooks. ADCC, NAGA and the rest. For people like me- IBJJF and UWW. If you are so keen on risking your own health don't make us all suffer for that.

>>If you're someone who is good enough to compete at the Olympic level in a sport, you're good enough to train with all submissions being legal including heel hooks.
tell that to judokas.
 
kpoz12 said:
So, wait, I can be right in the middle of eating a shoulder with my rARE JMMA/etc/ufc/ricksonKombatives, etc "nanO-nuclear0NIC-cybOrg-summoning str8ght ARMlock THAT U maY have not SCEEN b4", and his coach can just drop a belt and save his guy?
Or is it just for positions?
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You can't stop the match in the middle of submission or a takedown/sweep/pass. If your representative drops the belt in the middle of a submission attempt then referee will wait for this attempt to end and only then (if attempt fails, of course) stops the fight.
 
vodkaBearSnow said:
>>in the context of two experienced, safe guys rolling with them
lol. That almost never happens. There's always at least one less than experienced or maybe trigger-happy or maybe just too strong and too eager. Or maybe you just relax for a second and your ACL is gone for good. And we aren't talking about olympic level- Olympics is amateur! Most of guys who compete at olympic sports are kids or students- most younger than 23. Olympics start from local tournaments, from school kids. It IS amateur. Only few continue beyond this point and get to the top. And you want them to risk their health for few guys to enjoy full-scale leglock war? I guess we are lucky people in UWW know better than that.
I'm never going to be in the Olympics but I still want to enjoy grappling and enjoy having my ACL intact. For people like you there are enough federations who condone heelhooks. ADCC, NAGA and the rest. For people like me- IBJJF and UWW. If you are so keen on risking your own health don't make us all suffer for that.

>>If you're someone who is good enough to compete at the Olympic level in a sport, you're good enough to train with all submissions being legal including heel hooks.
tell that to judokas.
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Um... most Olympic team members for wrestling are in their late 20s and early 30s and grown men...
 
jack36767 said:
Um... most Olympic team members for wrestling are in their late 20s and early 30s and grown men...
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most olympic winners are in their middle 20s if you watch the statistics, and the lighter the weight, the younger the winner- typically. But we digress. It doesn't really matter. There are just so many olympic athletes in the national teams- and tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands, of people training the same olympic sport from the early age for the chance to get to those teams. You have tens of thousands (and that's for less popular sports) of kids and young adults training olympic sports. Most don't get it that far but still suffer health consequences. I am absolutely sure these consequences must be minimized when possible.

Removing heel hooks doesn't change the game THAT much but allows for certain safety of athletes. UWW doesn't pursue the perfect grappling sport. They want to create a sport which has simpler rules than IBJJF, more action than a typical IBJJF match and more standup, while at the same time making it as safe for athletes as possible. For example knee reap is relatively safe and doesn't lead to injuries that often and thus allowed. Heel hooks and slams aren't. There's also additional task of making easier transition to MMA for athletes (and I think this specific ruleset is very good for such transition. Better than current BJJ at least). Oh, and one thing- their main goal was to put grappling to Olympics one day. 20 years from now maybe, but still. BJJ doesn't have a chance. UWW Grappling does. It's a small one but still.
 
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vodkaBearSnow said:
most olympic winners are in their middle 20s if you watch the statistics, and the lighter the weight, the younger the winner- typically. But we digress. It doesn't really matter. There are just so many olympic athletes in the national teams- and tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands, of people training the same olympic sport from the early age for the chance to get to those teams. You have tens of thousands (and that's for less popular sports) of kids and young adults training olympic sports. Most don't get it that far but still suffer health consequences. I am absolutely sure these consequences must be minimized when possible.

Removing heel hooks doesn't change the game THAT much but allows for certain safety of athletes. UWW doesn't pursue the perfect grappling sport. They want to create a sport which has simpler rules than IBJJF, more action than a typical IBJJF match and more standup, while at the same time making it as safe for athletes as possible. For example knee reap is relatively safe and doesn't lead to injuries that often and thus allowed. Heel hooks and slams aren't. There's also additional task of making easier transition to MMA for athletes (and I think this specific ruleset is very good for such transition. Better than current BJJ at least). Oh, and one thing- their main goal was to put grappling to Olympics one day. 20 years from now maybe, but still. BJJ doesn't have a chance. UWW Grappling doesn. It's a small one but still.
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Fair point
 
Wait, so slams aren't allowed in this style of competition? Is that just the lift & slam type move when in guard or in an attempt to escape a submission, or all types of "slams" - Asking for clarification because people use that term in reference to throws.


In regards to heel hooks, why don't they do something similar to what UWW/FILA has done in the past with wrestling - not allow high amplitude throws until a specific age group.
 
riddleofsteel said:
Wait, so slams aren't allowed in this style of competition? Is that just the lift & slam type move when in guard or in an attempt to escape a submission, or all types of "slams" - Asking for clarification because people use that term in reference to throws.
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Both. You can't lift and slam when in guard, you can't slam during submission attempt. As far as I remember there's even rule that prohibits hyperextending spine while standing when someone closed a triangle on you (so that you don't slam your opponent by accident after being choked out).
 
I'd love to see a Submission Wrestling tournament that takes place in the last week of the games. You have swimmers and Track and Field athletes able to medal in multiple events such as 100m, 200m and 400m sprints. This would give athletes from the combat sports the ability to do the same. You could have a gold medal Judoka take off the Gi and try for a second gold in the sub wrestling tourney. Same for the wrestling disciplines. It would make for a really interesting, cross sport spectacle.
 
The penalties for guard pulling are great. It'll produce more well rounded grapplers (i.e. ones who actually have takedowns). Also, it's not like you won't have a chance to ever play guard....someone at some point is going to take you down without you initiating a guard pull. You just have to make sure he ends up in your guard on the way down or you have to be good at replacing.

The lack of heelhooks is silly and disturbing. They let boxers hit each other in the head. Wrestlers can sup each other. In either case, the recipient doesn't really have a mechanism to tap out and the technique can have serious long term consequences. But, in grappling where the recipient totally has the power to stop the move at any time, it's forbidden? How does that work?
 
I'm tellin you guys, scoring by riding time is the simplest and most elegant format there is.
 
I really like this. Except for the lack of heel hooks. Seems like an obvious improvement for action in BJJ. Very spectator friendly imo.
 
rmongler said:
I'm tellin you guys, scoring by riding time is the simplest and most elegant format there is.
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Be careful... you saw it at EBI 4 and you should watch some college wrestling... if you reward riding time too much... it will lead to stalling and watching paint dry.. the American folkstyle equivalent of winning by advantage from 50/50 (before they changed the rule) is a 2-1 or 2-0 win on riding time (the extreme amount of the time). I like EBI's format but be careful about glorifying riding time lol
 
I think they should do it the way Freestyle wrestling does. In (USA) Freestyle wrestling, certain par-tere holds are illegal till a certain age and some other moves. They should do the same with heel hooks but KEEP REAPING. From everything I've seen, it's the lack of understanding the control, positions, and leg entanglements that come with reaping that lead to traditional bjj guys getting caught or hurt
 
jack36767 said:
Be careful... you saw it at EBI 4 and you should watch some college wrestling... if you reward riding time too much... it will lead to stalling and watching paint dry.. the American folkstyle equivalent of winning by advantage from 50/50 (before they changed the rule) is a 2-1 or 2-0 win on riding time (the extreme amount of the time). I like EBI's format but be careful about glorifying riding time lol
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Nah see its like coding: stalling is *already* happening, therefore, if you make the stalling tactic*itself* an object, then all of a sudden, the fighters *themselves* will devise strategies to obviate it, that's what makes it elegant. Obviously, the problem in folkstye is not that you can get a point, but that you cant get *enough* points! So there is less psychological impetus for countermeasures.

Its kinda like, watching God shoot arrows at a barn door, then drawing bullseyes around where they land. Or you know, finding a fence in the middle of nowhere that you don't know the purpose of, and then electrifying it.
 
rmongler said:
Nah see its like coding: stalling is *already* happening, therefore, if you make the stalling tactic*itself* an object, then all of a sudden, the fighters *themselves* will devise strategies to obviate it, that's what makes it elegant. Obviously, the problem in folkstye is not that you can get a point, but that you cant get *enough* points! So there is less psychological impetus for countermeasures.

Its kinda like, watching God shoot arrows at a barn door, then drawing bullseyes around where they land. Or you know, finding a fence in the middle of nowhere that you don't know the purpose of, and then electrifying it.
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I'm asking a genuine question before we debate this any further...have you ever wrestled beyond a couple years of JV in high school? And how much folkstyle have you watched in the last 4 years? I'm asking so we have a objective measure of eachother's knowledge because what you just said is the reason not even RABID wrestling fans want to watch folkstyle and more and more love watching freestyle...
 
I like watching folkstye, but of course my tastes in grappling are likely different from most folks, so that probably colors my perspective.
 
rmongler said:
I like watching folkstye, but of course my tastes in grappling are likely different from most folks, so that probably colors my perspective.
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I understand, but if something isn't changed...folkstyle will go the way of the dodo. The easiest solution is to make it so that if you don't get a set of near fall you don't get riding time
 
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