Where does Oliveira rank amongst BJJ Goats in MMA with a win?

[JustOnce]

Sadly, I personally think Gaethje knocks him out. I do think Oliveira is a better fighter, and essentially, it's a similar tone of a fight as his his other two previous fights, Oliveira being a more technical, more well-rounded, better fighter, but his chin or durability might be put into question, whereas his opponents hits like a truck, as durable as they come, and pretty good in their own rights.

I do think Poirier gassed and found a way out sort of, and Chandler got cracked. Gaethje did look terrible on the ground against Khabib, but Oliveira isn't the wrestler Khabib is either. I think Gaethje at this point in their careers is a lot more durable than Chandler, more dangerous on the feet as you saw in their fights, and doesn't have a quit in him like a Poirier, though yes Poirier does have a win over him, but match ups make fights.

I really wanna see Islam vs Oliveira, probably, well arguably the best fight in the history of light weight division, so I am really hoping Oliveira pulls it off and a better fighters wins. And if he does win, where would you rank Oliveira amongst BJJ Goats in MMA? That would give him TWO title defenses at LW, with wins over Justin, Dustin, Mike, Tony, Fighter Kevin Lee, Guida, Miller and Brooks.
His run has been very impressive, a great, great story as well, an exciting finisher, easy to root for, and just a hell of a fighter and a great career.

Personally, I judge fighters as a whole, and don't change my opinions on fighters too quickly good or bad, so personally, if Oliveira were to win, the below would be my ranking for Oliveira amongst BJJ Goats in MMA. Feel free to share your own!

1. Werdum - Former UFC Champ, subbed Fedor, Cain and Nog.

2. Nog - Former PRIDEFC/UFC interim HW Champ.

3. BJ Penn - UFC LW/WW Champ, most # of LW title defenses.

4. Jacare - Never won a title, but neither did Maia.

5. Maia. - Mr. BJJ in UFC history. Probably get the most love as a BJJ guy in UFC, and one may even argue Maia belongs at the top, but I think top 3 accomplished more with elite BJJ as well, and with no title to either, I think Jacare would have fucked up Maia head to head and is a better MMA fighter, and yes Jacare had a pretty bad decline, but during their run, I think their records are pretty comparable, if not Jacare's is better. I do love Maia though, a LOT. But objectively, I think Jacare is ahead, though he gets half the love Maia gets around here.

6. Oliveira - UFC LW Champ, a win would give him just one short of record LW title defenses.

Thoughts?

 

[JustOnce]

War Chuck btw!

 

[G10]

As good as Oliveira’s BJJ is, he’s not as credentialed in BJJ as the other guys. He won some local competitions in Brazil, but he made the jump to MMA at a very young age.

As far as the best champions in UFC history who use BJJ as their base, he’s definitely up there. I would favor Anderson Silva at this point just because he won so many title fights with subs, but Oliveira is probably my number two.

 

[KingBeef]

Gaethje did look terrible on the ground against Khabib, but Oliveira isn't the wrestler Khabib is either.

If the fight hits the ground, Gaethje will be tapping. You can count on that.

 

[Luthien]

The greatest, best ever

 

[DS66]

For me its still Maia. He had pretty much no other skills, and everyone knew exactly what he was gonna do, and he'd still go in there and sub guys including lots of high level grapplers like Jason MacDonald, Chael Sonnen, Rick Story, Carlos Condit, Matt Brown, Neil Magny, Ben Askren. And never once got subbed himself, in 40 professional MMA fights fighting at the highest level. That says a lot.

Oliveira is awesome and was tremendous offensive grappling skills, but he's also been caught in subs a few times himself, and has developed some really good striking as well to help set up his takedowns and submissions. In terms of pure BJJ skills, I think he and everyone else is behind Maia.

 

[sdpdude9]

He’s obviously a prolific submission artist that can snatch submissions from anywhere. While exciting, his submission over position style has gotten him into bad spots and submitted himself. That’s not something you really see with other top bjj players. So I’d say top tier submission artist, but a notch below the others in overall bjj game.

 

[Lawrence]

For me its still Maia. He had pretty much no other skills, and everyone knew exactly what he was gonna do, and he'd still go in there and sub guys including lots of high level grapplers like Jason MacDonald, Chael Sonnen, Rick Story, Carlos Condit, Matt Brown, Neil Magny, Ben Askren. And never once got subbed himself, in 40 professional MMA fights fighting at the highest level. That says a lot.

Oliveira is awesome and was tremendous offensive grappling skills, but he's also been caught in subs a few times himself, and has developed some really good striking as well to help set up his takedowns and submissions. In terms of pure BJJ skills, I think and he and everyone else is behind Maia.

Agree

Maia
Yahya
Olivera
A big Gap
Everyone else who is elite
Butt scoot Werdum
Jacare gator guy
Mir/Nog

Charles is and has been more reckless, but that does not subtract from the danger he presents anyone who steps in there with him. It also makes him more exciting than most, which I appreciate.

 

[jx820]

As far as BJJ purists, he's not that high on the list. There are much better credentials out there.

As far as BJJ based fighters, he's the best by a wide margin IMO. Besides having the most subs in UFC history. He's passed up Maia with less fights, and he's done it in the hardest division in the sport and he's currently doing it at the championship level. He's got like 15 subs in 29 UFC fights or something like that. That's 52%.

 

[ThatGuy7698]

As good as Oliveira’s BJJ is, he’s not as credentialed in BJJ as the other guys.

Yeah the guy with the most submission wins in UFC history, even surpassing Demian Maia, isn't as credentialed.

 

[Kwic]

Yeah the guy with the most submission wins in UFC history, even surpassing Demian Maia, isn't as credentialed.

He means strictly BJJ credentials, winning BJJ tournaments before joining the UFC.

 

[TheMaster]

Yeah the guy with the most submission wins in UFC history, even surpassing Demian Maia, isn't as credentialed.

It's not surprising at all.

Pure BJJ credentials don't mean much in terms of submission fighting in MMA.
Add strikes, ability to take a hit and takedown strengths all changes things a lot.
The most credentialed in sport BJJ will most likely be less effective as they are more specialized for the less combat oriented version.

This is why we often still see wrestlers who learn submissions dominating, even on the ground like with Lesnar vs Mir.

 

[HHJ]

Lol Rick story thought by shooting projectile blood missles out his nose,that Yamazaki would stop it. Cmon man look who we're talkin about here. He's gotta see brain before you'll get any sympathy from him

 

[TankehAbbatoh]

Oliveira has amazing offensive BJJ skills, and is one of the most entertaining submission artists of all time. Defensively, he isn't the GOAT BJJ guy by a longshot, but I'll be damned if I ever got as excited as with an Oliveira fight when it hits the ground.

 

[JonJonesNeedle]

IMO it's Maia for sure.

The guy subbed many good fighters. He himself was never subbed. Physically, he was not a beast like Werdum or Jacare were.

 

[FlowchartRog]

As good as Oliveira’s BJJ is, he’s not as credentialed in BJJ as the other guys. He won some local competitions in Brazil, but he made the jump to MMA at a very young age.

As far as the best champions in UFC history who use BJJ as their base, he’s definitely up there. I would favor Anderson Silva at this point just because he won so many title fights with subs, but Oliveira is probably my number two.

I didn't know that, interesting point.

I suppose ultimately the credentials don't matter, in the realm of MMA Oliveria has proved his BJJ worth many times over. If anything it makes his lack of credentials more impressive, that he now has the most submission wins in UFC history.

@DS66 makes a good point, that Maia deserves a lot of respect for being such a pure BJJ guy and having as much success as he has in this well rounded MMA era.

But yeah, Charles having the most submission wins speaks for itself.

 

[mjfan23]

Yeah the guy with the most submission wins in UFC history, even surpassing Demian Maia, isn't as credentialed.

Hard to credential someone who gets subbed by lamas and pettis

 

[Docrob2354]

As good as Oliveira’s BJJ is, he’s not as credentialed in BJJ as the other guys. He won some local competitions in Brazil, but he made the jump to MMA at a very young age.

As far as the best champions in UFC history who use BJJ as their base, he’s definitely up there. I would favor Anderson Silva at this point just because he won so many title fights with subs, but Oliveira is probably my number two.

Anderson only won 2 title defenses. He is considered one of the best, if not the best, strikers ever, but he is never mentioned among the best submission artists

 

[G10]

Anderson only won 2 title defenses. He is considered one of the best, if not the best, strikers ever, but he is never mentioned among the best submission artists

Lol, I had to double-check that, and you're right! For some reason, I thought he had more victories by sub than that, but the Mandela Effect must be hitting me hard today.

In that case, I have to give it to Oliveira. Werdum also has some very high-level wins by sub, but I think Oliveira's made it a greater part of his arsenal.

 

[G10]

I didn't know that, interesting point.

I suppose ultimately the credentials don't matter, in the realm of MMA Oliveria has proved his BJJ worth many times over. If anything it makes his lack of credentials more impressive, that he now has the most submission wins in UFC history.

@DS66 makes a good point, that Maia deserves a lot of respect for being such a pure BJJ guy and having as much success as he has in this well rounded MMA era.

But yeah, Charles having the most submission wins speaks for itself.

I agree 100%. That's part of what makes MMA so great; it doesn't matter how many BJJ tournaments you won, or which college you wrestled at, or what your striking background is. All that matters is how you use it in the cage. I have no doubt that if Oliveira delayed MMA for a while longer to continue competing in BJJ, he could've won the ADCC like Maia, Souza, and Werdum did. And considering how much more rare subs in the UFC are, his record could stand for a very long time.