Why GSP > Fedor in GOAT Discussions

[scardera]

because Fedor's fans are retarded and live in a world where Fedor's nuts blind them form seein shit

 

[JamesBJJ]

A lot of people say he is GOAT.

Especially people who train and fight and understand what is actually going on.

And how do you know that people who train and fight are more likely to say it? That seems like an impossible thing to know or prove.

Also, people who thought that he was GOAT in <2009 may think differently today.

 

[smellmyfarts]

Fedor was the man. He was the best fighter in the world in his prime, and probably my favorite fighter to watch at that time.

With that said, GSP is more talented, and a better fighter. I can think of several fighters that beat Fedor in his prime at HW like Cain, Jones, DC, JDS etc.

Nobody beats prime GSP at 170, and if I where a betting man , I would bet a 36 year old GSP beats Fedor in an open weight fight.

As much as I love him, there is a reason Fedor was a completely different fighter in Pride. It's the same reason Crocop and Wanderlei were completely different fighters. If fedor would have had the same doctor as Vitor or Hendo, he would have still been crushing people at 40. I respect the fact that he aged like a man, and bowed out when it was time. I don't really count his comeback fights.

 

[LukeTheTruth]

I only said that in response to someone claiming Fedor fought a lot of nobodies. I was showing him a little background on a few of those nobodies. Those wins didn't matter much in terms of his legacy but those guys were undefeated and huge guys.

I doubt Stipe would take a fight against somebody that was undefeated and outweighed him by 170 pounds.

Records don't mean anything if your wins are over nobodies. Roggers 10-0 was made up of 8 people without a page on them. As soon as he started facing mid-level competition he started losing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Rogers#Mixed_martial_arts_record

 

[Typrune Goatley]

Records don't mean anything if your wins are over nobodies. Roggers 10-0 was made up of 8 people without a page on them.

He just knocked out Arlovski in 22 seconds.


He is literally almost the same way you look at Ngannou right now. Both of their biggest win is Arlovski. They are big with KO power. Rogers had never lost though. For all we knew, he had an iron chin and was invincible. Fedor absolutely destroyed that man but he was literally the equivalent to Francis Ngannou. A big mysterious question mark with KO power.

 

[LukeTheTruth]

He just knocked out Arlovski in 22 seconds.


He is literally almost the same way you look at Ngannou right now. Both of their biggest win is Arlovski. They are big with KO power. Rogers had never lost though. For all we knew, he had an iron chin and was invincible. Fedor absolutely destroyed that man but he was literally the equivalent to Francis Ngannou. A big mysterious question mark with KO power.

This is why i don't really rate Ngannou right now. If he beats a werdum/jds/hunt/cain i will rate him as a top guy. Having Arvloski as your highlight win means landing 1 punch, nobody can deny he is extremely chinny.

I still give Fedor credit for Arvloski as a legit fighter though, as easy as it is to stop Arvloski, he has just as easy of a time stopping you.

 

[LukeTheTruth]

Its the same as i only rank Khabib based on his UFC performances, which is why i rank Ferg/Conor above him. Could you imagine the tear Conor would go on in OneFC or Bellator?

The fighters Fedor beat, that i rank as legit competition, need to have either made it to the UFC and had some success (Nog, Mirko, Hunt, Shogun if you want to count lower weight classes), or have their own impressive history of opponents (Mark Coleman, Arvloski etc).

There are just simply a lot of people he faced that are from lower weight classes, but fought because of open-weight rules and a lot of people that had very questionable records themselves. I only listed 6 people that had a negative or winless record, but there were many more than where like 24-20 etc.

 

[JamesBJJ]

I only said that in response to someone claiming Fedor fought a lot of nobodies. I was showing him a little background on a few of those nobodies. Those wins didn't matter much in terms of his legacy but those guys were undefeated and huge guys.

I doubt Stipe would take a fight against somebody that was undefeated and outweighed him by 170 pounds.

Pro record of Zulzhino's opponents prior to fighting Fedor, at the time they fought:

0-0
1-1
0-0
0-0
4-0
1-3

Yeah, technically he was undefeated. Technically, most sherdog posters are undefeated too. Being undefeated doesn't mean much when you haven't fought anyone in the top 100. A #1 HW in the world fought a guy whose main qualification as a fighter was being morbidly obese.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

This is why i don't really rate Ngannou right now. If he beats a werdum/jds/hunt/cain i will rate him as a top guy. Having Arvloski as your highlight win means landing 1 punch, nobody can deny he is extremely chinny.

I still give Fedor credit for Arvloski as a legit fighter though, as easy as it is to stop Arvloski, he has just as easy of a time stopping you.

I agree. People forget Arlovski knocked out Roy Nelson and Ben Rothwell who are both known for their iron chins.

Prime AA was very fast, powerful and had good boxing offense. Just never had as good of defense.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

Pro record of Zulzhino's opponents prior to fighting Fedor, at the time they fought:

0-0
1-1
0-0
0-0
4-0
1-3

Yeah, technically he was undefeated. Technically, most sherdog posters are undefeated too. Being undefeated doesn't mean much when you haven't fought anyone in the top 100. A #1 HW in the world fought a guy whose main qualification as a fighter was being morbidly obese.

Fedor just had the biggest fight of his career only 4 months prior versus Cro Cop.


He fought Zulu at Shockwave, the annual NYE show. Fedor loved to fight in one of the big NYE events in Japan every year. Who would Fedor have fought that night or should he have just stayed home?

 

[JamesBJJ]

Fedor just had the biggest figjt of his career only 4 months prior versus Cro Cop.


He fought Zulu at Shockwave, the annual NYE show. Fedor loved to fight in one of the big NYE events in Japan ever year. Who would Fedor have fought that night or should he have just stayed home?

A top 5 ranked opponent? Or at least top 10? Or how about someone with BMI under 50.

 

[tenniswhiz]

Which part are you struggling with? Its a known fact that the UFC can afford and attempts to sign the best MMA athletes, i guarantee the majority of people aren't choosing to fight in OneFC because they prefer it over the UFC.

Are you 10 years old?
Do you understand that the world existed before you started watching MMA?

Horrible post.
You know absolutely nothing about Fedor or his career.

Believe whatever you want.
Yea, ok, Fedor and his entire career of opponents all fight in OneFC.
Sure buddy.

Stop posting.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

A top 5 ranked opponent? Or at least top 10? Or how about someone with BMI under 50.

Lol.

He had already basically cleaned out the majority of the division. He was basically fighting giant super heavyweights for fun.

Japan loves that David vs Goliath shit

 

[dfoster]

GSP came back. Fedor has left the building. His body is still fighting but his soul is gone.

 

[LukeTheTruth]

I'm not going to deny your points @MastiffMike. While i didn't watch Fedor live until he started fighting for Affliction, i have watched all of his fights that are available online. He had great performances. But how i see GOAT, is if you scaled each fighter to the same size. I honestly can't see him beating Prime DC/Jones/GSP, but i see him beating Prime Anderson/Cain etc.

You can not deny a LOT of his opponents have very sketch records, that itself is fact and all you have to do is go visit their wiki/fighter pages to see that.

We're also aguing over the depth of GSPs division. The WW division has always been more stacked than HW in any organization. HW is made up of very few great athletes. Again, if you're 230lb+ in great shape, and have great athletic ability, you are most likely picked up by another sport that pays you in millions.

Just for some of the bigger names:
~ Mark Coleman, was dominant in his early career because you didn't have well rounded fighters. Its like the Ronda Rousey effect. He used his class A wrestling to exploit others weak wrestling base.
~ Big Nog has never been a great kickboxer, he's great on the matt, but as soon as he started fighting people he couldn't take down, he got lit up.
~ Heath Herring took a 1-1 Lesnar that had been in the sport for about 12 months to decision. But its not like this fight was even remotely competitive.

I just don't see how Fedor's competition matches GSPs. He had MORE competition in pure numbers, but in quality i dont think so.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

How many fighters (that Fedor fought) had great success in the UFC then went to Pride (or other)? Let's see:

Coleman (was one of THE best early UFC fighters, and then he went to pride and Fedor finished him, when Coleman was in his prime, TWICE)
Randleman (left the UFC for Pride and Fedor beat him)
Goodridge (started off in the UFC but then later went to Pride where all the best HWs were, and Fedor beat him)
Rizzo (had 9 UFC wins and then went to Pride and Fedor beat him)
Schilt (fought in the UFC then went to Pride and Fedor beat him)
Sylvia (2-time UFC Champ,was 24-4, fought Fedor and got finished)
Arlovski (Former UFC Champ who'd won all 5 fights after losing to Sylvia then got KOed by Fedor)
Monson (Fought Sylvia for the UFC HW title and lost a decision then asked to be cut to go to Pride to fight Fedor. However Fedor ended up fighting Sylvia. Monsoon eventually did fight Fedor, Fedor won)

Went from Pride to the UFC (after Pride folded):
Heath Herring (Lesnar went to a decision with Herring, Fedor TKOed him)
Mark Hunt (Fedor finished him then years later Hunt went to the UFC and had success)
Mirko (Fedor beat him in Pride when CroCop was at his best and was 16-2. Years later at 22-4 Mirko went to the UFC when Pride folded)
Werdum (Top 3 HW of all time and Fedor's first legitimate loss, who went to the UFC when Pride folded and went on to become UFC Champ)
Big Nog (Consensus #2 HW that Fedor beat twice in Pride, prior to Nog going to the UFC and becoming the Interim HW Champ)

Other notables (that Fedor didn't fight but that fought in multiple orgs):
Ricco Rodriguez (beat Couture to become UFC HW Champ, lost the title to Sylvia, then after going 5-1 in the UFC he went to Pride)
Mark Kerr (was undefeated in the UFC at 4-0 when he left for Pride where he won 6 fights before he started losing to people that Fedor beat - like Fujita and Herring)
Overeem (In Pride he lost to people Fedor beat, like Nog (twice) and Arona. He also lost to MWs Shogun (twice) and Liddell)
Roy Nelson (fought in IFL before winning TUF and having mixed success in the UFC - Lost to Monson and Arlovski that Fedor beat)
Paul Buentello (While Fedor was reigning over the world's best HW fighters in Pride, Buentello was winning in the UFC - but did lose to Arlovski - who Fedor beat)
Ben Rothwell (had great success in IFL but is 6-4 since coming to the UFC)
Barnett (Former UFC HW Champ that was 7-3 in the UFC over multiplt stints, and multiple failed drug tests. Went 10-5 in Pride/Affliction/Strikeforce) - This is the one guy I wish Fedor had fought back in their prime Pride days, or at least that he hadn't popped and ruined Afflicition and his fight with Fedor)
Pulver (went UFC (6-0) > Pride (2-2) > UFC (0-2) In his first stint he won the UFC title and defended in twice before going to Pride)
Dan Henderson (a MW/LHW had great success in Pride but by the time he came to the UFC he really struggled)
Gomi-Shogun-Wanderlei Silva (see Henderson comments)
Anderson Silva (went 3-2 in Pride but years later did pretty good in the UFC)

I'm sure there's more but that's enough for now.

BTW, I'm a HUGE GSP fan so I'd rank them 1-2 (either order is fine by me). GSP's loss to Serra I think of like Fedor's loss (cut). Otherwise they both dominated very deep pools of the best fighters of the day.

Great post. Great perspective. It's like everything is connected in a big web where it all goes back to Fedor at the top. He ruled over the entire world of MMA for so damn long.

Even in his early RINGS footage he looked very sharp and dangerous. His hands and his throws were on a whole different level.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

I'm not going to deny your points @MastiffMike. While i didn't watch Fedor live until he started fighting for Affliction, i have watched all of his fights that are available online. He had great performances. But how i see GOAT, is if you scaled each fighter to the same size. I honestly can't see him beating Prime DC/Jones/GSP, but i see him beating Prime Anderson/Cain etc.

You can not deny a LOT of his opponents have very sketch records, that itself is fact and all you have to do is go visit their wiki/fighter pages to see that.

We're also aguing over the depth of GSPs division. The WW division has always been more stacked than HW in any organization. HW is made up of very few great athletes. Again, if you're 230lb+ in great shape, and have great athletic ability, you are most likely picked up by another sport that pays you in millions.

The early to mid 2000s Heavyweight division was just as deep and talented as GSP's era of Welterweight.

It was also a lot more dangerous. GSP never had to fight scary KO artists as dangerous as Mark Hunt, Cro Cop, Arlovski, Schilt, Goodridge, etc. Those guys can end you in one punch and GSP rarely had that risk.

Fedor did not lose for 10 years in the division where everyone gets knocked out. That is amazing in itself.

 

[LukeTheTruth]

If we ignore failed drug tests, i see Jones as GOAT.

Can you name a Fedor list more impressive? Because while there are good wins, there aren't THAT MANY good wins:
- Shogun (Champion)
- Rampage (Champion)
- Machida (Champion)
- Gus (15-2 when they fought)
- DC (2 weight Champion)
- TRTor (arguable scariest mofo alive)
- Rashad (Champion)
- Glover (22-2 when they fought)
- Bader (Bellator Champ, 12-0 when they fought)
- Brandon Vera (11-4 when they fought, his only losses prior to jones came to champions)
- Matyushenko (24-5 when they fought, only losses to 1 non champion)
- Hammil (8-2 when they fought, losses to champions)
- Stephan Bonnar (12-4 when they fought, only losses to champions)
- Chael (30–15, with some very big name wins and losses)

 

[LukeTheTruth]

Just for arguments sake @MastiffMike "Brian Heden = was 2-4 but now is 30-16, with photo"

This fight shouldn't count either, if you are no good coming into the fight with Fedor, that matters. You can improve later in your career sure, but thats not the same fighter.

I'm using the JJ history as argument, because i find it the most impressive history of any fighter ever. I rank GSP above him purely because of the failed tests.

 

[LukeTheTruth]

GSPs UFC Reign in chronological order, as you can see none of them have horrible records, and those who have losses, those losses are to champions.

Karo Parisyan - 10-2 when fought, only losses to champions
Jay Hieron - 4-0 when they fought
Dave Strasser - 21-5 when they fought
Jason Miller - 16-3 when they fought
Frank Trigg - 12-3 when they fought, fought champions
Sean Sherk - 31-1 when they fought, champion
BJPennx2 - 10-3/13-5 when they fought2 division champion, only losses to champions
Matt Hughesx2 - 41-5/42-6 when they fought, Champion, defended 5 times
Josh Koscheckx2 - 9-1/15-4 when they fought
Matt Serra - 10-4 when they fought, Champion
Jon Fitch - 18-2 when they fought
Thiago Alves - 17-5 when they fought
Dan Hardy - 23-6 when they fought
Jake Shields - 26-4 when they fought, Strikeforce Champion
Carlos Condit - 28-5, Interim Champ
Nick Diaz - 26-8, Strikeforce Champion
Johny Hendricks - 15-1, Champion
Michael Bisping - 30-7, Champion, every loss is a big name or champion