Why JBJ's failed drug tests don't bother me (looking at the bigger picture)

[Captain Herb]

Jones is actually the most successful GOAT who has consistently fought under strict drug testing.

But he's not successful at passing the tests

 

[20falarVerdades]

What was the stricter testing that began a month after he retired?

USADA came in July 1, 2015, but wasn't aware of anything changing in December 2013.

GSP won the MW belt with USADA testing.

NSAC enhanced testing effectively started in late November 2013. It tested for hGH and had out of competition tests.

 

[big franklin]

So what is your point? Everyone knows and competes under the same rules, if you are not working within those rules to your advantage then that's on you. Every sport includes strategic use of fouls according to the rules when the potential advantage outweighs the penalty. Unfortunately there are really no penalties in MMA for even the most blatant of fouls, but again it has been that way forever and everyone knows that and is competing under that same situation.

Is it cheating for NBA players to repeatedly intentionally foul players on other team towards the end of the game because they gain more advantage from the foul than the penalty for committing it? No, it is not, it is intelligent play within the rules. Mental skills are often the most significant difference between levels of every sport.

You sucked the words right outta my mouth!

 

[Cartiac]

No one cares, it's about logic. When GSP fought in the UFC, doping was not allowed. If he used illegal products, then he's a cheater just like Jon Jones. It's not about stringent tests, it's about basic logic.

That couldn't be farther from the truth. You must not have been around then which is perfectly ok but just to make you aware, GSP fought during the TRT era of UFC. That exemption allowed full blown testosterone and really any other compounds they wanted but only for fighters suffering from hypogonadism of course which surprisingly happened to be all of them.

Coincidence or not GSP retired just before that TRT exemption was banned. Jon Jones is one of the only fighters to have fought before and after that period and did so with no significant change.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

So what is your point? Everyone knows and competes under the same rules, if you are not working within those rules to your advantage then that's on you. Every sport includes strategic use of fouls according to the rules when the potential advantage outweighs the penalty. Unfortunately there are really no penalties in MMA for even the most blatant of fouls, but again it has been that way forever and everyone knows that and is competing under that same situation.

Is it cheating for NBA players to repeatedly intentionally foul players on other team towards the end of the game because they gain more advantage from the foul than the penalty for committing it? No, it is not, it is intelligent play within the rules. Mental skills are often the most significant difference between levels of every sport.

The difference is...in the NBA every team can do that and not get a penalty..

In MMA nobody is allowed to be juiced... Therefore juicing is cheating and not strategy..

 

[Cartiac]

My point is, slapping someone’s wrist in the NBA is quite different than gouging someone’s eye or kicking them in the balls in a cage fight. In the NBA, you are allowed a specific amount of fouls; not so in MMA as an intentional foul can result in a DQ and a loss of the bout.
You are acting like NBA fouls and MMA fouls are the same and that shows just how little you know about the sport and how idiotic you are.
Martial Arts has a code of honor that other mainstream sports do not; if you ever trained or competed you would know this.

The fouls in NBA are at the least equal to those in MMA considering the goal of NBA is to throw a ball through a circle more times than your opponent and the goal of MMA is to prove you could kill your opponent. The rules and penalties regarding fouls are also just as equally known in the NBA as they are in MMA.

I also could have sworn you were the same guy that just told me most fouls in MMA are actually committed on purpose but now you are telling me they follow a code of honor? Did you forget which side of your mouth you are speaking from?

 

[Cartiac]

You sucked the words right outta my mouth!

Gotta be honest, the way you worded that makes me slightly uncomfortable

 

[Alpha_T83]

Ya... No. The argument "other pro athletes have cheated, so cheating is OK" doesn't hold any weight at all. Lance Armstrong was rightfully stripped of his achievements when he was retroactively proven to have cheated. Jon Jones' record should be erased. And it may very well be erased in the future.

Jon's legacy will not be good. It's very difficult to keep secrets forever. There is some dirty business behind the scenes with USADA and their "scientist" Eichner. I suspect over the next decade or two that we will hear stories about how the UFC helped cover up Jones' PED use. Don't forget, this is not the olympic USADA testing that Jon is going through. This is USADA's private branch. And they test for profit, and they work with their partners.

I'll be shocked if Jon is even considered on the list of GOAT candidates in 20 years.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

I'm not feeling a few examples of others cheating. However...

I always felt like it was okay pre-USADA since it seemed very common to the point that Nate was right... (everyone's on steroids) and so it's all fair. Jones just did it better. For sure he's got sick skillz too though. Drugs didn't do it all for him.


...

 

[Snoowpy]

So what, you're saying that Nick Diaz is on gear? But he's always talking shit about people who are!! Plus he's vegan, come on, Nick is obviously not a roid monkey, and neither is his brother, so stop saying that.

Next think you'll tell me that Mark Hunt is on gear, after spending years blasting his competition for roiding....

Reading comprehension muhfuka.

 

[Richard Fannin]

I'm not feeling a few examples of others cheating. However...

I always felt like it was okay pre-USADA since it seemed very common to the point that Nate was right... (everyone's on steroids) and so it's all fair.
...

Reading comprehension muhfuka.

If Nate and Nick Diaz are right, then it means that the Diaz bros are on steroids too. They can't be the only exceptions, right? Especialy since their best friends, main training partners & Skrap Pack members Jake Shields & Gilbert "El Nino" Melendez pissed hot too

Either everyone is on steroids (even Nate Diaz himself), or his quote means nothing.

 

[NovaJon93]

I recall reading an article a few years back which went into great detail about the tests and concluded that there was no intentional cheating. I personally find that to be dubious and think it's happened far too many times to be unintentional, but it's interesting to think that he's been cleared of knowingly cheating in each instance. Below are a recap of each of his failed tests where he was exonerated by either USADA, an independent arbitrator, or both.

UFC 182
- Fails pre-fight drug test for cocaine metabolites, but no performance enhancing impact stems from cocaine usage.
- Jones is found to have an abnormally low Testosterone/Epitestosterone ratio. NSAC confirms that despite the low T/E ratio, the same samples were tested via Carbon Isotope Ratio testing. Per NSAC, the only finding was still solely cocaine metabolites.
MAIN TAKEAWAY: By Jones' own admission and the test's findings, he intentionally used cocaine, which does not enhance performance.

UFC 200
- Fails pre-fight drug test for banned two substances, clomiphene and letrozole. Jones maintains innocence and claims this is a direct result of taking a contaminated product which he believed to be Cialis.
- USADA obtains an exact sample of the product Jones referred to and finds it to be contaminated.
- Through an arbitration hearing, a panel concludes that Jones did not intentionally use banned substances to gain an advantage due to their confirmation of the contaminated substances.
MAIN TAKEAWAY: USADA officially concludes that Jones did not intentionally cheat by using clomiphene and letrozole; however, he must be held responsible for what he ingests and is disciplined with a one-year suspension.

UFC 214
- Jones tests positive for a banned substance, Turinabol. His KO title win over DC is overturned and he is stripped of the title.
- USADA issues him a 15-month suspension, which is reduced because he agreed to snitch/inform on other athletes, or "Substantial Assistance."
- USADA releases a statement advising that an independent arbitrator found that Jones was not intentionally cheating as this was another case of tainted supplements.
MAIN TAKEAWAY: Jones is again deemed to have unintentionally used tainted supplements resulting in the positive test for Turinabol.

UFC 232
- Jones again tests positive for a miniscule trace amount of Turinabol, which results in NSAC not licensing him to fight against Gustafsson in Nevada.
- The event is moved to Los Angeles where CSAC requires Jones to enroll in VADA along with his participation in the USADA program.
- Drug tests find the existence of trace amounts of Turniabol to be a result of the "pulsing effect."
- On the advice of medical experts, CSAC does not take any disciplinary action against Jones as he was not believed to have re-taken any substances following the UFC 214 positive test.
MAIN TAKEAWAY: Jones is cleared of any intentional cheating by CSAC as the positive test for trace amounts of Turinabol stemmed from the unintentional UFC 214 instance.

TL;DR, Jones has tested positive for performance enhancing substances three times and has been cleared of intentionality each time by USADA, independent arbitrators, and CSAC, respectively.

Fighters aren't always cleared of intentionality. Take Anderson, for example. He was cleared of intentionally cheating as he took tainted supplements leading up to a scheduled Gastelum fight, but was not cleared for having androsterone is his system for the Diaz fight.

Jones' legacy will likely always be marred by the sheer number of times his name has been associated with drug tests gone awry. But it's only fair to at least recognize the factual reality that he's been officially cleared each time, regardless of whether these exonerations are believed to be corrupt or not.

 

[Royce Greasy]

I think it means you won when the ref raises your hand.

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UFC is a business they do what's best for their business, here's the thing I don't give a rat's ass what you know or think because I don't live through these guys I'm not 14 yo idolizing athletes, all that matters is that I know that A. Jones is a 3 time cheat B. imo he lost those 3 fights, if none of this was a problem then it wouldn't be constantly brought up but it will follow him wherever he goes.

 

[Royce Greasy]

None of his opponents were able to stop him, that's the first thing : KO, TKO, submission.

Also in all of his closer fights, Jon Jones was never afraid, never ran away, was always coming forward, was always the aggressor, was always taking the control of the cage. All of that while being the champion : you can't beat the champion if you let him acting like that. No wonder he never lost outside of your imagination.

That wasn't the point I was addressing and its a fact that he doesn't dominate all his opponents he's been in fights that I believe he lost and if not that were very close to the point where he needed the help of the judges to skim by. You blabber on about how he was the aggressor in those fights I mentioned but my eyes don't deceive me.

 

[Royce Greasy]

Mark Coleman has pretty much admitted that he threw the Takada fight on a couple of occasions... one time was before UFC 109 where he fought Randy Couture in his retirement bout:
"Interviewer: Was the match with Nobuhiko Takada the low point (Writer’s Note: Coleman allegedly lost the match on purpose to give the Pride star some much needed credibility)?
Mark Coleman: It was what it was. I needed to support my family. They guaranteed me another fight after that and I needed that security. It was what it was. I’m going to leave it at that."

Then a couple months ago he did an interview with Chris "Lights Out" Lytle (his podcast is great, it's a fantastic archive for "lesser known" MMA history) in which he claimed that he threw that fight


To Mark's defense, that was in 1999, no one knew what MMA was, and that it would become so big one day... in his mind that loss to Takada probably meant nothing in the grand scheme of things, it didn't affect his ranking...

It's different from taking a dive in the UFC today, 24 years later, with all the money involved, the rankings, the sport's legitimacy being put in question, etc etc etc

There is an interview where he says it wasn't a dive and another thing Mark was already on a 3 fight losing streak going into the Takada fight, to take it further Takada also went something like 9 minutes against Rickson Gracie that was no fluke he was good enough to be competitive against the best of the Gracie's not only that he fought Cro Cop to a draw what are you gonna say that was a set up match no way.

Takada was good enough to catch Coleman who was at his lowest point in a heel hook on a 3 fight losing streak absolutely no question, its just fans can't handle when someone they perceive as being a huge favorite loses, plus saying it is what it is that's not an admission to throwing a fight
and saying I got payed well is just picking out the positive of taking a fourth loss that's all.

I just finished watching an interview with Carlos Newton on the Hannibal on Youtube where he is asked this question about fixed fights in Pride to which he responds by saying if it was it was a select few guys, actually he really doesn't say much of anything concrete and goes onto to say that nowadays there's more interference by the promoters if anything.

 

[Poatan Power]

Well. yes, cheating is a part of the game. But so are the consequences, both the official ones (point deductions, disqualifications, suspensions, etc.) in addition to peoples perception of your legacy being altered.

we're here to see who can fight each other in a cage the best when the rules are being applied equally and fairly. Not who's the best at getting away with breaking the rules, so, it does matter more than you're making it out to be.

But in the grand scheme of things, from my viewpoint, it's like a +/- 10% thing, not a total disqualification of his resume.

 

[fedorthegoat777]

Definitely a damper on his legacy.

Look at Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, and Jose Canseco, in baseball. There legacy was destroyed.

 

[anuscakes]

I recall reading an article a few years back which went into great detail about the tests and concluded that there was no intentional cheating. I personally find that to be dubious and think it's happened far too many times to be unintentional, but it's interesting to think that he's been cleared of knowingly cheating cheating in each instance. Below are a recap of each of his failed tests where he was exonerated by either USADA, an independent arbitrator, or both.

UFC 182
- Fails pre-fight drug test for cocaine metabolites, but no performance enhancing impact stems from cocaine usage.
- Jones is found to have an abnormally low Testosterone/Epitestosterone ratio. NSAC confirms that despite the low T/E ratio, the same samples were tested via Carbon Isotope Ratio testing. Per NSAC, the only finding was still solely cocaine metabolites.
MAIN TAKEAWAY: By Jones' own admission and the test's findings, he intentionally used cocaine, which does not enhance performance.

UFC 200
- Fails pre-fight drug test for banned two substances, clomiphene and letrozole. Jones maintains innocence and claims this is a direct result of taking a contaminated product which he believed to be Cialis.
- USADA obtains an exact sample of the product Jones referred to and finds it to be contaminated.
- Through an arbitration hearing, a panel concludes that Jones did not intentionally use banned substances to gain an advantage due to their confirmation of the contaminated substances.
MAIN TAKEAWAY: USADA officially concludes that Jones did not intentionally cheat by using clomiphene and letrozole; however, he must be held responsible for what he ingests and is disciplined with a one-year suspension.

UFC 214
- Jones tests positive for a banned substance, Turinabol. His KO title win over DC is overturned and he is stripped of the title.
- USADA issues him a 15-month suspension, which is reduced because he agreed to snitch/inform on other athletes, or "Substantial Assistance."
- USADA releases a statement advising that an independent arbitrator found that Jones was not intentionally cheating as this was another case of tainted supplements.
MAIN TAKEAWAY: Jones is again deemed to have unintentionally used tainted supplements resulting in the positive test for Turinabol.

UFC 232
- Jones again tests positive for a miniscule trace amount of Turinabol, which results in NSAC not licensing him to fight against Gustafsson in Nevada.
- The event is moved to Los Angeles where CSAC requires Jones to enroll in VADA along with his participation in the USADA program.
- Drug tests find the existence of trace amounts of Turniabol to be a result of the "pulsing effect."
- On the advice of medical experts, CSAC does not take any disciplinary action against Jones as he was not believed to have re-taken any substances following the UFC 214 positive test.
MAIN TAKEAWAY: Jones is cleared of any intentional cheating by CSAC as the positive test for trace amounts of Turinabol stemmed from the unintentional UFC 214 instance.

TL;DR, Jones has tested positive for performance enhancing substances three times and has been cleared of intentionality each time by USADA, independent arbitrators, and CSAC, respectively.

Fighters aren't always cleared of intentionality. Take Anderson, for example. He was cleared of intentionally cheating as he took tainted supplements leading up to a scheduled Gastelum fight, but was not cleared for having androsterone is his system for the Diaz fight.

Jones' legacy will likely always be marred by the sheer number of times his name has been associated with drug tests gone awry. But it's only fair to at least recognize the factual reality that he's been officially cleared each time, regardless of whether these exonerations are believed to be corrupt or not.

During the trial where they had Richard H. McLaren giving his "expertise" to USADA the CSAC 100% said there was intentional use at some point for the drugs to be in his system.

 

[spearfishin guy]

they're all on juice. if some guy at the local YMCA is dropping 500+ a month on juice just to look good at the beach and bar you don't think guys will dose to potentially earn millions? If the top guys in badminton are popping for roids all these guys are also.

 

[Cartiac]

I recall reading an article a few years back which went into great detail about the tests and concluded that there was no intentional cheating. I personally find that to be dubious and think it's happened far too many times to be unintentional, but it's interesting to think that he's been cleared of knowingly cheating cheating in each instance. Below are a recap of each of his failed tests where he was exonerated by either USADA, an independent arbitrator, or both.

UFC 182
- Fails pre-fight drug test for cocaine metabolites, but no performance enhancing impact stems from cocaine usage.
- Jones is found to have an abnormally low Testosterone/Epitestosterone ratio. NSAC confirms that despite the low T/E ratio, the same samples were tested via Carbon Isotope Ratio testing. Per NSAC, the only finding was still solely cocaine metabolites.
MAIN TAKEAWAY: By Jones' own admission and the test's findings, he intentionally used cocaine, which does not enhance performance.

UFC 200
- Fails pre-fight drug test for banned two substances, clomiphene and letrozole. Jones maintains innocence and claims this is a direct result of taking a contaminated product which he believed to be Cialis.
- USADA obtains an exact sample of the product Jones referred to and finds it to be contaminated.
- Through an arbitration hearing, a panel concludes that Jones did not intentionally use banned substances to gain an advantage due to their confirmation of the contaminated substances.
MAIN TAKEAWAY: USADA officially concludes that Jones did not intentionally cheat by using clomiphene and letrozole; however, he must be held responsible for what he ingests and is disciplined with a one-year suspension.

UFC 214
- Jones tests positive for a banned substance, Turinabol. His KO title win over DC is overturned and he is stripped of the title.
- USADA issues him a 15-month suspension, which is reduced because he agreed to snitch/inform on other athletes, or "Substantial Assistance."
- USADA releases a statement advising that an independent arbitrator found that Jones was not intentionally cheating as this was another case of tainted supplements.
MAIN TAKEAWAY: Jones is again deemed to have unintentionally used tainted supplements resulting in the positive test for Turinabol.

UFC 232
- Jones again tests positive for a miniscule trace amount of Turinabol, which results in NSAC not licensing him to fight against Gustafsson in Nevada.
- The event is moved to Los Angeles where CSAC requires Jones to enroll in VADA along with his participation in the USADA program.
- Drug tests find the existence of trace amounts of Turniabol to be a result of the "pulsing effect."
- On the advice of medical experts, CSAC does not take any disciplinary action against Jones as he was not believed to have re-taken any substances following the UFC 214 positive test.
MAIN TAKEAWAY: Jones is cleared of any intentional cheating by CSAC as the positive test for trace amounts of Turinabol stemmed from the unintentional UFC 214 instance.

TL;DR, Jones has tested positive for performance enhancing substances three times and has been cleared of intentionality each time by USADA, independent arbitrators, and CSAC, respectively.

Fighters aren't always cleared of intentionality. Take Anderson, for example. He was cleared of intentionally cheating as he took tainted supplements leading up to a scheduled Gastelum fight, but was not cleared for having androsterone is his system for the Diaz fight.

Jones' legacy will likely always be marred by the sheer number of times his name has been associated with drug tests gone awry. But it's only fair to at least recognize the factual reality that he's been officially cleared each time, regardless of whether these exonerations are believed to be corrupt or not.

One of the best posts I have ever seen here! Great work pulling together a summary of all the important events and the common points that are made about each whether they are actually true or not.