Winning Gear - Whats the secret 'ingredient'

[shihtzu]

I think i quoted that article a few times actually lol also i wonder if the article might be baised towards poly foams i haven't red it in full just glanced at it.

This article is more a sort of marketing than any study. Not the best sort of argument support.

I don't know, i don't know what they are up to, but i'm sure they are paying for the highest quality of poly,synthetic latex, eva foams they can get their hands on.
I'm sure they are durable products, but i would have to test the durability for myself to know for sure the 2 weeks i used a pair of winnings was not long enough.
the Ms-600 gloves i seen were denser then the cleto resyes gloves so i can only say what i seen personally.

I am pretty sure the reason they use artificial foams is not because they wish to save on natural latex what a can of beer costs in Japan.
The durability of Winning gloves is deeply proved. So is the Reyes - leather lasts forever, padding does not.
Well, some Reyes are really soft (though I would not say softer than Winning), the problem is that in case of Reyes unlike Winning this softness causes your knuckles going through the foam (especially on a heavy bag) - for this reason Grant use compressed latex in their bag gloves to prevent it. This is what never happens with Winning - either they are new or 5 years old.

i think if any moisture gets into the foams it will never fully dry as no air flow can get to it regardless if its a natural latex or a synthetic foams.

Yes and no. Water easier evaporates from many synthetic foams than from natural latex. This is caused by the nature of latex.
Btw for exemple there are Isami bag gloves you can even wash.

Hmm weird your post reminded me that i had a top ten headgaurd i wanted to rip open. OK I just cut it open and it's too hard to compare i know this headgear the cross section of the foam it does look different from latex molds. The bubbles looked more compressed and it looks like there are shiny particles in it reflecting more light. Also just took a quick hammer impact test to it and within 30 impacts the foam did soften up but it performed alot better then alot of injection molds i put this test to. However i swore the bayfill gloves had a different foam then this headgear. I swore it was latex when i ripped it open. I guess i'll have to grab another glove to satisfy my curiosity.

1) Top Ten gloves are BAYFILL - polyreuthane
http://www.topten.de/de/boxen/schut...utz/kopfschutz-top-ten-competition-fight-/231
http://www.bayermaterialsciencenaft...m=EB7C4AFE-91DF-50A0-4BF8AEF5B03A8835&o_num=5
2) Top Ten AIBA headgear is EVA.
http://www.topten.de/de/boxen/aiba/aiba-zulassung/kopfschutz-top-ten-leder/457
3) this sort of Top Ten headgear (in any variation) is BAYFLEX (also polyreuthane, but different from BAYFILL)

http://www.topten.de/de/boxen/schut...utz/kopfschutz-top-ten-competition-fight-/231
http://www.bayermaterialsciencenaft...m=EB7C4B5C-B241-D9D5-2EA43661D2124F43&o_num=5
No laytex at all, dude.

they use alot of different combinations of high and low density foams to make their molds. Like i said gear is all about personal preference. some people like winning, some people hate it.

Well, some people hate using headgears, some people hate handwraps...
I would rather accent the opinion of people who know the most about boxing on practice and among them there is almost no Winning hater.

Yeah i normally do both test it out for a few weeks then cut it open.
Not trying to make a winning mold just trying to come out with my own blends that i'm satisfied with. Once i do that the rest should just fall into place. or so i hope.

Curious for the result!

I was just quoting some article on latex foams that i found which just reinforced what i had read in the past.
I still think a high quality latex will out perform the same high quality synthetic foam. that top ten headgear surprised me on the impact test but more R&D would have to go into looking into why it surprised me before i can make a decision on it.

There is an old proverb "Thinking means knowing nothing" :icon_lol: Just kidding

More for curiosities sake i just want to know what everyone is doing and i'm still going to use latex where i think it's needed.

goal is to have 3-4 types of padding. i looked at how winning did their gloves but i'm going to do something different. i think of it as a winning glove of steroids weather it needs it or not, as i want to make sure everything in our kong line is just outrageous when it comes to protection. SO i can actually say i have the most protective gloves on the market and not be bullshitting. weather or not people like it i just want to have it in my line up.

Mate, I am sure you believe so... However the protection is a vague term. What is it? For exemple Ringside IMF gloves protect you fully - they are a shield your knuckles will never go through. So do compressed latex gloves. But the joints do not need a shield, they need something that absorbs energy. Thick rubber soles will totally "protect" your feet, but they will absorb nothing comparing to Asics foam/gel soles. This is what makes Winning gloves foam different - it absorbs energy, it is neither a bouncing thing, nor a stiff shield. Their level and the way of cushioning are exceptional. This is why so many pro boxers use them, not because they are expensive or look good.

Isn't Floyd the captain of team grant? that's what it says on grants facebook page somewhere. i'm sure behind the scenes there is money changing hands. i know when i talked to PRO MMA fighter if he needed more gear at that time he said he'd love to but he had a fairtex sponsor right then and he couldn't take the chance of beening seen/photo'd/video'd not using their gear, as he didn't want to take a chance of loosing that money or contract.

Dude, this does not even deserve a respond. It is the same old song as that Winning gloves are made of a fake leather. Everbody knows Floyd uses Winning gear all the time except when the camera is on and fights. There are tons of videos and pictures. He buys and uses Winning all the time (despite he can have any Grant gear for free). G. Saint-Pierre has a contract with Hayabusa, do you think he uses it? :icon_lol:

No, of course he does not. He uses anything except Hayabusa :icon_lol:

 

[GFG]

I am pretty sure the reason they use artificial foams is not because they wish to save on natural latex what a can of beer costs in Japan.
The durability of Winning gloves is deeply proved. So is the Reyes - leather lasts forever, padding does not.
Well, some Reyes are really soft (though I would not say softer than Winning), the problem is that in case of Reyes unlike Winning this softness causes your knuckles going through the foam (especially on a heavy bag) - for this reason Grant use compressed latex in their bag gloves to prevent it. This is what never happens with Winning - either they are new or 5 years old.

Yeah you can get laytex in a wide range of different densities and qualities.

Yes and no. Water easier evaporates from many synthetic foams than from natural latex. This is caused by the nature of latex.
Btw for exemple there are Isami bag gloves you can even wash.

I think it has more to do with the shell then the foams, would you trough your leather winning gloves in the wash on a regular basis? They don't have natural laytex foams in them

1) Top Ten gloves are BAYFILL - polyreuthane
http://www.topten.de/de/boxen/schut...utz/kopfschutz-top-ten-competition-fight-/231
http://www.bayermaterialsciencenaft...m=EB7C4AFE-91DF-50A0-4BF8AEF5B03A8835&o_num=5
2) Top Ten AIBA headgear is EVA.
http://www.topten.de/de/boxen/aiba/aiba-zulassung/kopfschutz-top-ten-leder/457
3) this sort of Top Ten headgear (in any variation) is BAYFLEX (also polyreuthane, but different from BAYFILL)

http://www.topten.de/de/boxen/schut...utz/kopfschutz-top-ten-competition-fight-/231
http://www.bayermaterialsciencenaft...m=EB7C4B5C-B241-D9D5-2EA43661D2124F43&o_num=5
No laytex at all, dude.

Makes sense the headgear responded to my impact test more like an EVA type foam then any natural or synthetic laytex, poly foam i've seen. Which is the same foam or similar foam used in the winning fg-2900 however they are just missing the comfort layer. i'll still have to pick up a pair of bayfil gloves and poke inside as like i said i trust my experience first over anything i read online.

Well, some people hate using headgears, some people hate handwraps...
I would rather accent the opinion of people who know the most about boxing on practice and among them there is almost no Winning hater.

true, but also the sport has a lot to do with it. If i had a pair of winning gloves & a pair of fairtex gloves and walked into a muay thai club 8 out of 10 guys or girls would just shrug off the winning gloves and pick the fairtex gloves as their preferred gloves for them they would go with a trusted muay thai brand over winning brand. Plus the psychology of money has a lot to do with the success of any high priced brand. Winning controls the retail very well by limiting the distribution chanels and restricting its distributors to only sell at retail. sure winning usa is a bit higer priced the distributors out of japan but that's expects as it's an imported product

Curious for the result!

Mate, I am sure you believe so... However the protection is a vague term. What is it? For exemple Ringside IMF gloves protect you fully - they are a shield your knuckles will never go through. So do compressed latex gloves. But the joints do not need a shield, they need something that absorbs energy. Thick rubber soles will totally "protect" your feet, but they will absorb nothing comparing to Asics foam/gel soles. This is what makes Winning gloves foam different - it absorbs energy, it is neither a bouncing thing, nor a stiff shield. Their level and the way of cushioning are exceptional. This is why so many pro boxers use them, not because they are expensive or look good.

My goal is to have various styles of padding that we can market to people with different set of priorities.

 

[GFG]

here is in interesting article on the psychology of money http://moneyandvalues.blogspot.ca/2008/03/psychology-of-money-we-think-higher.html

to sum it up if you have 2 identical products, one is priced at $50 the other at $200, chances are the $200 product will make you feel better.

 

[shihtzu]

Yeah you can get laytex in a wide range of different densities and qualities.

Of course you can. Softer latex bounces a bit (it is a rubber in the end) and your knuckles go through, denser latex is like a wall. Not the best performance at all.

I think it has more to do with the shell then the foams, would you trough your leather winning gloves in the wash on a regular basis? They don't have natural laytex foams in them

Demagogy. If this foam wasn't able to dry fully (latex is not) you would not be able to wash them despite the shell.

Makes sense the headgear responded to my impact test more like an EVA type foam then any natural or synthetic laytex, poly foam i've seen. Which is the same foam or similar foam used in the winning fg-2900 however they are just missing the comfort layer. i'll still have to pick up a pair of bayfil gloves and poke inside as like i said i trust my experience first over anything i read online.

Oh, I see, so Top Ten lie to the millions of customers for years... those filthy bastards...

, but also the sport has a lot to do with it. If i had a pair of winning gloves & a pair of fairtex gloves and walked into a muay thai club 8 out of 10 guys or girls would just shrug off the winning gloves and pick the fairtex gloves as their preferred gloves for them they would go with a trusted muay thai brand over winning brand. Plus the psychology of money has a lot to do with the success of any high priced brand. Winning controls the retail very well by limiting the distribution chanels and restricting its distributors to only sell at retail. sure winning usa is a bit higer priced the distributors out of japan but that's expects as it's an imported product

A mixture of legit arguments and sophisms. Yes, the price tag makes many people believe something they are using is better than the same thing of the cheaper price. Of course. Grant gear (with current prices) is a good exemple.

On the other hand the fact you are claiming this in many variations again and again makes me think you have never been using Winning gloves extensively (what you actually honestly admitted). If you used them extensively you would know how different is their performance from any other gloves. How MUCH better it is. By miles. Winning gloves are not about the leather, perfect stitiching or the price tag (though all these atributes are placed high in their case ), they are about the performance of the padding. This is the reason why pros use them, not the price tag, or the country of manufacturing (do you really believe Mexican boxers are obsessed to own JPN gloves?) or anything but the fit and performance (both are determined by the padding). This is what it is all about. There are many good gloves (incl. yours btw), but all are miles far in terms of padding/performance.

No gloves have this level and this sort/way of cushioning. No gloves come close at all.

As for the price. Dude, are you joking? There are no distributors out of Japan (except some few in Asia like in Seoul who buy the gear in Japan). The whole international sell runs via winning-usa.com and the prices there have nothing to do with import because all th gear is sent worldwide from Japan (not resend via Kazumichi) Winning-usa.com prices are so high because they are USD fixed and since the time they fixed them YEN has dropped very much, this is why rakuten is cheaper (everything in YEN there). Again, the same case as with Top Ten padding... repeating it again and again, everybody ignores it.

My goal is to have various styles of padding that we can market to people with different set of priorities.

I believe you wish. This is a business. There will be always customers who prefer bricks over Winning padding despite firm padding naturally destroys their joints.

here is in interesting article on the psychology of money http://moneyandvalues.blogspot.ca/20...nk-higher.html
to sum it up if you have 2 identical products, one is priced at $50 the other at $200, chances are the $200 product will make you feel better.

Of course, even lawyers have economics course Though a couple of years ago...
Mate, before the application of some generalization you need to know whether it is suitable in this particular case. And the only way to find it out in this case is a really extensive use of Winning gloves.
Btw I haven't heard of any fighter who has switched to latex from Winning. Despite many of them can have the best latex gloves (Grant) for free while for Winning they have to pay.

As I said, you can believe in whatever you wish, but unless you have used Winning gear extensively (that you obviously have not) most of your arguments are actually baseless.

 

[GFG]

I still stand behind the fact that a high end natural latex is more suitable as a contact foam then any poly foams. until i personally see otherwise.

 

[shihtzu]

I still stand behind the fact that a high end natural latex is more suitable as a contact foam then any poly foams. until i personally see otherwise.

It is your legit right. However your posture is unbased because it is not supported with the only reasonable and important thing in this case: practical usage. Opinion is just a theory, practice is the reality.

 

[GFG]

It is your legit right. However your posture is unbased because it is not supported with the only reasonable and important thing in this case: practical usage. Opinion is just a theory, practice is the reality.

from my perspective practical usage is like "bro science" to many variables and emotions come into play to make it reliable. If i know the person personally and he can break down the usage of the gloves over time then i can get a reliable picture of how good the gloves are. But seeing people opinions online which don't get me wrong is good,as it gets my attention to a product but i need a more up close experience with the product. Truthfully other then myself picking them up to cut open i have yet to see someone else pick up a pair. so ive never seen a well used pair personally. However i don't venture into boxing clubs as much as mma or muay thai clubs.

 

[shihtzu]

from my perspective practical usage is like "bro science" to many variables and emotions come into play to make it reliable. If i know the person personally and he can break down the usage of the gloves over time then i can get a reliable picture of how good the gloves are. But seeing people opinions online which don't get me wrong is good,as it gets my attention to a product but i need a more up close experience with the product. Truthfully other then myself picking them up to cut open i have yet to see someone else pick up a pair. so ive never seen a well used pair personally. However i don't venture into boxing clubs as much as mma or muay thai clubs.

As you understand "I haven't used them much, but I still believe the natural latex is better" is not an argumentation. To judge the gear you need to use it extensively not just dissect it.
As for the bro science... Well, it depends. Boxing is a bro science in general. And all depends much on who your bro actually is. For this reason your argumentation is not much supported (well, actually it is heavily supported, as heavily as a millstone around neck during swimming) by the full ignoration of facts like that Floyd who has a contract with Grant and is their main marketing icon uses Grant gloves only on camera and in fights, he pays for Winning gloves to use them instead of Grant gloves (the best latex gloves, gotten for free). Or Mexicans Marquez and Canelo who can have the best custom Mexican latex gear but what do they use? This is of course because of the price tag of Winning, those dudes know nothing about protection/performance of the gear, so they buy Winning because of the illusion it is better (while actually it is worse than latex Grant for exemple, btw Grant is more expensive than Winning). Sorry for sarcasm.

To summarize it a bit, I cannot answer the question "what is the secret ingredient". But I can answer "What makes them exceptional?".
The level and the way of cushioning (absorption of energy) and performance in general. Nothing comes close in this area. Nothing compares.

It is ridiculous when people say "Well, Winning gear is definitely good, but there is equal gear, just different" (btw despite many of them have not used Winning actually). What is "different"? So soft that the knuckles go through? Or so dense the it is like a wall that ruins your joints with every punch in the long term? Or bouncing so they send the energy back to your joints (and again ruin them in the long term)?
The only really protective gloves are those with great cushioning (absorption), because they absorb energy (at them same time of course your knuckles mustn't go through). In this field Winning gloves are incomparable to any IMF, latex Grant/Reyes or anything else I have used.

The fact some people prefer bricks does mean they are comparable to Winning, the only thing it means the guys know nothing about anatomy (or do not care).

 

[GFG]

lol i think we just wasted a few pages completely talking around each other. In the end your argument was that the gloves are great why change anything, and in my argument i was like i never seen a synthetic foam outperform of high quality latex foam in person in the context of a sparring glove.

you talked about the padding as a whole all 3 layers, i'm talking about individual layers of foam.

if your happy with the way the glove absorbs the energy but doesn't bottom out all your saying to me is "i like how the first 2 layers are soft but the last higher density layer acts as the wall protecting my knuckles."

in your argument you stated that winning absorba shock but doesn't bottom out, other gloves are bricks and other gloves are too soft. that is pretty vague even for only bro science. i argue that what your saying can be replicated with totally different foams. Our new primal sparring gloves will do the same thing as you described with only 1 out of the 3 foams you'd find in a pair of ms-600, the will have a soft laytex layer as a contact surface which means they will absorb energy and be softer on your opponents face the winning gloves, then a second soft layer will be denser then winnning's 2nd layer but still soft and indestructible which will start the process of protecting your knuckles but not being to hard as to not continue to absorb the energy, and the last layer is a medium density layer that is the same that winning uses in there gloves so expect the same performance from the last layer. In theory the combo in these gloves should outperform the winning gloves as a whole, hell if you think each individual layer of foam in the winnings are indestructible you haven't seen nothing as the middle layer of this mold not only doesn't absorb any water which i have no clue why it is even relevant as these are not life jackets they are boxing gloves but it doesn't soften up under my crude impact test (which within 30seconds can easily get a years worth of stress on a square inch area of foam)

 

[shihtzu]

lol i think we just wasted a few pages completely talking around each other. In the end your argument was that the gloves are great why change anything, and in my argument i was like i never seen a synthetic foam outperform of high quality latex foam in person in the context of a sparring glove

Ah, a very easy logic then:
Premise 1) I have never seen a synthetic foam outperform of high quality latex foam in person in the context of a sparring
Premise 2) Winning gloves have synthetic foam.
What is the logical conclusion? Winning do not outperform high quality latex foam.
So.. then name please the brands with latex foam gloves which Winning foam does not outperform?

if your happy with the way the glove absorbs the energy but doesn't bottom out all your saying to me is "i like how the first 2 layers are soft but the last higher density layer acts as the wall protecting my knuckles."

Not at all. I like the performance in general, even the outer layer has a lot to do with the fact the knuckles do not go through. And NO, the inner layer does not act like a wall comparing to what I was talking about (compressed latex in Grant super bag gloves for exemple).

in your argument you stated that winning absorba shock but doesn't bottom out, other gloves are bricks and other gloves are too soft. that is pretty vague even for only bro science. i argue that what your saying can be replicated with totally different foams. Our new primal sparring gloves will do the same thing as you described with only 1 out of the 3 foams you'd find in a pair of ms-600, the will have a soft laytex layer as a contact surface which means they will absorb energy and be softer on your opponents face the winning gloves, then a second soft layer will be denser then winnning's 2nd layer but still soft and indestructible which will start the process of protecting your knuckles but not being to hard as to not continue to absorb the energy, and the last layer is a medium density layer that is the same that winning uses in there gloves so expect the same performance from the last layer. In theory the combo in these gloves should outperform the winning gloves as a whole

This all sounds good in theory. In fact it is more or less identical to what TU, Fighting etc. etc. have claimed. My God, even Darrin from Ringside claimed here Heritage are the best gloves ever made. Believe me, they are not.
So the practice has been yet MUCH different from what the companies claimed. Far far different. Though the theory was similar to yours.

hell if you think each individual layer of foam in the winnings are indestructible you haven't seen nothing as the middle layer of this mold not only doesn't absorb any water which i have no clue why it is even relevant as these are not life jackets they are boxing gloves but it doesn't soften up under my crude impact test (which within 30seconds can easily get a years worth of stress on a square inch area of foam

A "crude impact test"... ah, I see... What about Pacquiao or JM Marquez years daily abuse test? Which one is more valuable for me... a tough decision...

Anyway... so the middle layer neither softened up, nor absorbed water? Don't you think it's maybe not a coincidence and it is as it should be?

You call my arguments (empirical knowledge of years long great performance with a day by day abuse by the top pro) a "bro science". OK. However your way of testing the Winning foam deserves being called DIY

 

[GFG]

Like i said we keep dancing around each other with valid points, in the end if i need to know how well a foam wil compare to another i will pull out my trusty hammer and do my DIY