Debate with controversial 17-year-old blue belt Gracie Combatives "head instructor"

[deadlizard]

damn, that gym looks legit! Would train there, but not pay membership fee.

 

[Uchi Mata]

This is just a rhetorical question, but would just the general BJJ public looking at Rener and Ryron's art as something different from the larger BJJ community and as its own system help situations like this? Basically separating Gracie Jiu-jitsu from Brazilian Jiu-jitsu? Then each camp could do their own thing?

The larger BJJ community already does. We already think self defense guys are watering down the art. We already think 'Gracie Jiu Jitsu' is a marketing ploy to squeeze every last dollar out of Helio's legacy by selling belts online. This isn't about this kid not being legit. He's clearly not legit in terms of ability to execute BJJ at a level most of us would consider necessary to teach. It's about him being sold as legit and laymen who are thinking about taking up BJJ being sold a bill of goods by some semi-con men with a famous last name.

 

[deadlizard]

The larger BJJ community already does. We already think self defense guys are watering down the art. We already think 'Gracie Jiu Jitsu' is a marketing ploy to squeeze every last dollar out of Helio's legacy by selling belts online. This isn't about this kid not being legit. He's clearly not legit in terms of ability to execute BJJ at a level most of us would consider necessary to teach. It's about him being sold as legit and laymen who are thinking about taking up BJJ being sold a bill of goods by some semi-con men with a famous last name.

Within the Kung Fu circle, the WuDang style is completely different than the Shaolin style. And if you train kung fu, you know the difference.

But to the dumb westerners, it's all the same shit.

 

[sb413197]

Nice debate and video. The 17 year old is pretty mature - can't say I would have been able to debate...well, anything at that age haha

 

[sb413197]

This kid wanted to bypass the years of hard work/learning/life experience and start teaching earlier. He's the same breed as Ari Bolden in my book.

That seems a little harsh man. He's a 17 year old kid. He doesn't have enough life experience to level that kind of judgement on him.

If you want to level blame, place it on the Gracies. To a lesser degree his parents. A distant 3rd would be this kid.

Personally though I'm ok with it for the most part. I think the Gracies should have waited until he was 18 and a purple belt - it would have prevented backlash - but that's about it. They are pretty clear that it is a "Gracie Combatives" gym - in other words it's a really fancy garage gym. I think that after a few months of training, people who are interested in competing are gonna be drifting over to the other gyms in the area who offer what they're looking for.

 

[Torrid]

It's kind of funny when people talk about the 'art being watered down', then defend the illegality of knee reaping and heel hooks 'because they're scary bro and it's just one twist, I gotta still get to work man'.

'Slams aren't good technique, that's not BJJ', uh-huh. It's been watered down. It's just getting to the point of being outright humorous.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Within the Kung Fu circle, the WuDang style is completely different than the Shaolin style. And if you train kung fu, you know the difference.

But to the dumb westerners, it's all the same shit.

I actually did train kung fu for years, and in my experience the internal guys marketed themselves as something very different than the hard style guys, with good reason. You got different things from both. The Gracie marketing doesn't do that, they mostly just shit on competitors (even though those competitors would beat up their students in basically any scenario). I think their marketing is just deceptive, that's what annoys me about it. And because they have the last name 'Gracie', it works even though they're selling out real jiu jitsu.

 

[RTD1]

Within the Kung Fu circle, the WuDang style is completely different than the Shaolin style. And if you train kung fu, you know the difference.

But to the dumb westerners, it's all the same shit.

And to smart westerners, it's all bullshit.

 

[deadlizard]

I actually did train kung fu for years, and in my experience the internal guys marketed themselves as something very different than the hard style guys, with good reason. You got different things from both. The Gracie marketing doesn't do that, they mostly just shit on competitors (even though those competitors would beat up their students in basically any scenario). I think their marketing is just deceptive, that's what annoys me about it. And because they have the last name 'Gracie', it works even though they're selling out real jiu jitsu.

To a certain extent, 10thp is doing the same thing in that they're marketing themselves as something different than traditional BJJ. Hence, my kung fu analogy.

I do agree the way 10thp markets themselves is a lot more palatable than the Gracie BS.

All martial arts started the same, then you'll get different styles because of power and money.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

Houston Cottrell with Ryron and Rener

His training center in Madison, Mississippi

As an SF Bay Area resident I'm always blown away when I remember how much space is available in the rest of the country. I grew up in Houston, and pics like this reminds me of going to my sister's gymnastics classes when I was a kid.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

If I had a 17 year old, I'd never let him run his own gym.

It is way too dangerous. You know how many nut jobs walk through the door to tell you about their black belts, how they were fighters, what they did to people in prison, blah blah blah. I've seen the craziest people come up to my instructors.

If you are big or look like you can fight, they won't ask to fight. People asking to spar are usually just shopping around and testing to see if you are game. That's not that dangerous.

The loony tunes though, man, I'm telling you all it isn't just the honor of your teacher's teacher you are worried about. It is your own neck.

This is a good point. Well-trained adults on this very thread are literally discussing going to his gym and beating the shit out of him.

 

[lechien]

This is a good point. Well-trained adults on this very thread are literally discussing going to his gym and beating the shit out of him.

I run a BJJ club for 4 years and I never had any problem.
No nutcases, no challenges etc...

But running a Gracie Academy is different. For generations, they challenge anyone for a fight.

Not sure how the valentes bros deal with it?

Do they just feed their blue belts to the challenger?

You can read stories on how Royce had to take on all the challengers at Torrance.

Maybe they just do not let you train unless you sign a year contract?

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I just finished listening to this, and the big misunderstanding among this kid and Gracie Combatives in general is that nobody INTENTIONALLY sets out to water down the art or delude their students. It's that little things like renaming the sport ("oh this isn't jiu jitsu, it's self defense, bully proofing, fitness etc."), playing fast and loose with belt promotions ("my students are promoted based on filmed technical demonstrations"), and adding a mail order element to training and coaching certification, are exactly things that have been proven to destroy the integrity of countless organizations, not just martial arts. And I guarantee that when we have this discussion in 20 years, it will be things like this that we'll point to as the cause of the kung fu-ization of BJJ

 

[lechien]

I just finished listening to this, and the big misunderstanding among this kid and Gracie Combatives in general is that nobody INTENTIONALLY sets out to water down And I guarantee that when we have this discussion in 20 years, it will be things like this that we'll point to as the cause of the kung fu-ization of BJJ

You are correct but that only applies to GJJ at the moment and not BJJ.

Unless there are others doing similar system outside the Gracie Torrance Bros.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

You are correct but that only applies to GJJ at the moment and not BJJ.

Unless there are others doing similar system outside the Gracie Torrance Bros.

Of course, but I imagine the same arguments were once been made among every other once-honorable institution before it went to shit. After a while, the backdoor route becomes so ubiquitous that it waters down the organizations with integrity. It seems crazy now, but I could easily imagine the 2035 IBJJF Worlds having a "self defense" division, or being so point-oriented that merely attempting a submission can end the match (round?) because the masses are no longer training with full contact and so don't know what a real submission feels like.

 

[lechien]

Of course, but I imagine the same arguments were once been made among every other once-honorable institution before it went to shit. After a while, the backdoor route becomes so ubiquitous that it waters down the organizations with integrity. It seems crazy now, but I could easily imagine the 2035 IBJJF Worlds having a "self defense" division, or being so point-oriented that merely attempting a submission can end the match (round?) because the masses are no longer training with full contact and so don't know what a real submission feels like.

I think the ibjjf will stay on course and supply a competition platform to find our best BJJ competition.

There is already other styles of sub grappling and GJJ style of competition that are different from ibjjf.

 

[EXOICHO]

This is why competition should be a requirement for a promotion, in my opinion. Maybe you don't have to win matches, but just show competence in your matches or at least be willing to compete?

It really separates mcdojos and authentic gyms

 

[thugpoet]

Kid has been training for 6 years its not like he is a scrub. Sure he may not be Marcelo or Ryan hall, but who is? He has a situation that he fills confortable in so why are you all so salty?

No body is asking u to train with him

 

[johnkreese]

This kid talks like Rener Gracie.

 

[CrashStitches]

^ I agree.

Maybe I'm a close-minded old man idealizing the past. But 12 years ago, something like this would have been unheard of in BJJ. There wouldn't be any debate or controversy because it would be flat-out unacceptable. Laughable.

I remember when the BJJ community labelled Gene Simco a fraud and a belt-shopper because he got his brown belt and his black belt from different instructors. Because people thought it was shady how Simco went to Michael Jen. That's nothing compared to what's going on these days.

The reality is this: We are witnessing the watering down of a martial art. Just like what happened to karate and TKD when they came to the USA. I didn't want to admit it. I thought BJJ was too tough to succumb. I thought the mat doesn't lie. But here it is.

You could say BJJ is the new "McDojo," but it's not true. Even poor people can afford to eat at McDonald's.