a thread has no name (and no spoilers)

[AGGAMEMNON66]

So was Robert then which invalidates Stannis claim and makes him equally wrong.

Robert may or may not have been morally right but he was legally wrong if you go that way.

Robert wasn't fighting to take the throne tho. The end result of him winning was him getting the throne -someone had to.

Robert and Jaime both state that all Ned had to do was sit on the iron throne in order to take it at that point, but he obviously walked away from that.

So I'm not sure Robert is a true ursurper in the sense that he rose up with the intention of becoming the new King. He just wanted the love of his life back -who had been kidnapped by the Prince at the time.

At least, from watching the show and reading the 1st couple of books that's how I've interpreted it.

 

[heavyarms21]

Didn't it start with Brandon and his Father wanting Lyanna back and then the Mad King Burned them . Unless my timelines are wrong the Mad King then demanded that Ned and Robert be turned over to him , Jon Arryn refused and that started the Usurper War .

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

Didn't it start with Brandon and his Father wanting Lyanna back and then the Mad King Burned them . Unless my timelines are wrong the Mad King then demanded that Ned and Robert be turned over to him , Jon Arryn refused and that started the Usurper War .

Yeah, sounds about right.

In any event -I agree that Renly didn't have a 'right' to the throne if you go by the rule of succession, which this fictional world seems to go by. Hence, why bastard children and killing offspring of would be high born royalty is such a priority to scheming characters show wise.

However, Renly seemed to be planning on taking the throne by force which is technically another way to get the seat. So there is some grey area in this discussion. But even that always leads back to him at some point having to kill or fight Stannis due to the nature of that decision.

At the end of the day, Renly was dumb and in the wrong for trying to skip the rule of succession here and thus dividing up forces when he could have taken up cause with Stannis and easily won the throne (from the looks of it anyway). On the end of Stannis, he kind of had no choice but to try and get the throne if you think about it -backing Renly would have made him look weak and as a result no one would have any respect for him after, not to mention its outside of the law of the land for him to take up Renly's cause when the throne should be his. Almost all of this is why the 'honorable' Ned Stark chose to back Stannis as the rightful heir.

Renly -even tho his heart might have been in the right place- kind of fucked a lot of shit up when he chose this course.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

If you sit back and think about it, much of what happens in the show after Neds death is actually Renly's fault. If Renly backs Stannis right away, Rob basically does the same. Which leaves the Lannisters pretty much landlocked and without any real allies. War is over pretty quickly at that point.

 

[Daverisimo]

Yeah, sounds about right.

In any event -I agree that Renly didn't have a 'right' to the throne if you go by the rule of succession, which this fictional world seems to go by. Hence, why bastard children and killing offspring of would be high born royalty is such a priority to scheming characters show wise.

However, Renly seemed to be planning on taking the throne by force which is technically another way to get the seat. So there is some grey area in this discussion. But even that always leads back to him at some point having to kill or fight Stannis due to the nature of that decision.

At the end of the day, Renly was dumb and in the wrong for trying to skip the rule of succession here and thus dividing up forces when he could have taken up cause with Stannis and easily won the throne (from the looks of it anyway). On the end of Stannis, he kind of had no choice but to try and get the throne if you think about it -backing Renly would have made him look weak and as a result no one would have any respect for him after, not to mention its outside of the law of the land for him to take up Renly's cause when the throne should be his. Almost all of this is why the 'honorable' Ned Stark chose to back Stannis as the rightful heir.

Renly -even tho his heart might have been in the right place- kind of fucked a lot of shit up when he chose this course.

To be fair, Renly had a much bigger army behind him than Stannis (the Reach and almost all of the Stormlands had declared for Renly). If it weren't for Mel's blood magic, Renly would have destroyed Stannis, and if he made an alliance with Robb (which he seemed on the path to doing) they could have easily finished off the Lannisters. Only problem is, he had no way to prepare for Mel's old hag shit.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

To be fair, Renly had a much bigger army behind him than Stannis (the Reach and almost all of the Stormlands had declared for Renly). If it weren't for Mel's blood magic, Renly would have destroyed Stannis, and if he made an alliance with Robb (which he seemed on the path to doing) they could have easily finished off the Lannisters. Only problem is, he had no way to prepare for Mel's old hag shit.

Stannis may have had a smaller army, but he was the seasoned commander out of the two -and it wasn't like he had jack shit for an army, I mean even after having half his fleet fire bombed he almost took Kingslanding.

A fight between Stannis and Renly -regardless of the outcome- is damaging for both armies and a total waste of time and resource imo.

And again, going by who had rightful claim between Stannis and Renly -it was Stannis. So lets pretend Stannis does lose -but lives -Renly's claim will always be in question until that gets resolved, meaning Renly has to kill Stannis.

Putting Stannis in a fucked up position to begin with. Even Renly getting killed was his own fault. He really didn't leave Stannis much choice. A lot of this makes the wannabe honorable Brian look like even more of a dumbass btw.

 

[RockstarChris]

Robert Baratheon was a false king and the true heir to the throne is Jon Targaryen who will end up marrying Sansa Stark and will rule the seven kingdoms while Dany returns to rule Essos after they defeat the Night King.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

Now Renly, was an usurper by definition. Almost to the letter.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

Robert Baratheon was a false king and the true heir to the throne is Jon Targaryen who will end up marrying Sansa Stark and will rule the seven kingdoms while Dany returns to rule Essos after they defeat the Night King.

Winning a war can win you the seat too. Which Robert and friends did.

I mean, if you don't follow that rule, then even the Targs aren't the true Kings of that land because they had to win it in the 1st place too.

 

[Daverisimo]

Robert Baratheon was a false king and the true heir to the throne is Jon Targaryen who will end up marrying Sansa Stark and will rule the seven kingdoms while Dany returns to rule Essos after they defeat the Night King.

WTF is with everyone wanting Jon to commit incest? People either want him to get with Dany or Sansa. He may be a Targ by blood, but he wasn't raised as a Targ, so I don't see him fucking his aunt or his cousin.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

To be fair, Renly had a much bigger army behind him than Stannis (the Reach and almost all of the Stormlands had declared for Renly). If it weren't for Mel's blood magic, Renly would have destroyed Stannis, and if he made an alliance with Robb (which he seemed on the path to doing) they could have easily finished off the Lannisters. Only problem is, he had no way to prepare for Mel's old hag shit.

It speaks to how little people give a shit about honour and line of succession, that they would support Renly over Stannis just because he had Tyrell support.

What a crappy bunch of people. Stannis should never even have had to turn to the red woman for support.

Also it would have been good to see Robb as a field commander with Tywin coordinating the war effort against Dany and the Dothraki.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

WTF is with everyone wanting Jon to commit incest? People either want him to get with Dany or Sansa. He may be a Targ by blood, but he wasn't raised as a Targ, so I don't see him fucking his aunt or his cousin.

Dany is not officially his Auntie yet. Everyone assumed that theory is true (it probably is) but it might not be.

Also, she would be his, what, half aunt who is younger than him? Seems like not that big of a deal as far as Westeros goes.

Him screwing Sansa I agree would be super weird and uncool.

 

[Daverisimo]

Stannis may have had a smaller army, but he was the seasoned commander out of the two -and it wasn't like he had jack shit for an army, I mean even after having half his fleet fire bombed he almost took Kingslanding.

A fight between Stannis and Renly -regardless of the outcome- is damaging for both armies and a total waste of time and resource imo.

And again, going by who had rightful claim between Stannis and Renly -it was Stannis. So lets pretend Stannis does lose -but lives -Renly's claim will always be in question until that gets resolved, meaning Renly has to kill Stannis.

Putting Stannis in a fucked up position to begin with. Even Renly getting killed was his own fault. He really didn't leave Stannis much choice. A lot of this makes the wannabe honorable Brian look like even more of a dumbass btw.

Sure, Stannis was a seasoned commander, but he was the only seasoned commander on his side (remember, most of the force he attacked KL with were lords that declared for Renly first, but switched to Stannis after Renly died), whereas Renly had most of the Reach and the Stormlands behind him. Without blood magic, Stannis would've been a bump in the road at best.

It speaks to how little people give a shit about honour and line of succession, that they would support Renly over Stannis just because he had Tyrell support.

What a crappy bunch of people. Stannis should never even have had to turn to the red woman for support.

Also it would have been good to see Robb as a field commander with Tywin coordinating the war effort against Dany and the Dothraki.

I'm pretty sure they declared for Renly because they thought he'd be a better king. And they might've been right.

 

[Daverisimo]

Dany is not officially his Auntie yet. Everyone assumed that theory is true (it probably is) but it might not be.

Also, she would be his, what, half aunt who is younger than him? Seems like not that big of a deal as far as Westeros goes.

Him screwing Sansa I agree would be super weird and uncool.

Sure, she's younger than him, but Dany's still his paternal aunt. Shit's not cool.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

Sure, Stannis was a seasoned commander, but he was the only seasoned commander on his side (remember, most of the force he attacked KL with were lords that declared for Renly first, but switched to Stannis after Renly died), whereas Renly had most of the Reach and the Stormlands behind him. Without blood magic, Stannis would've been a bump in the road at best.
.

Um, no. High Garden went to the Lannisters. Infact, I do believe most of Renly's forces declared for Kingslanding after Renly was killed. Its what swung the tide and eventually overpowered Stannis forcing his retreat.

And regardless of this scenario -my point is more about who was actually supposed to get the throne, not who could have won it by force. I honestly don't care which army could defeat the next.

My main point is; Stannis had no choice -Renly did. And he (Renly) made the wrong choice.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

Sure, Stannis was a seasoned commander, but he was the only seasoned commander on his side (remember, most of the force he attacked KL with were lords that declared for Renly first, but switched to Stannis after Renly died), whereas Renly had most of the Reach and the Stormlands behind him. Without blood magic, Stannis would've been a bump in the road at best.


I'm pretty sure they declared for Renly because they thought he'd be a better king. And they might've been right.

They might have been right, sure, but that's not how the laws of Westeros were supposed to work.

People play fast and loose with the rules when it suits them. It's weird they would support Renly because he would be a better king even though he was gay with no combat experience. A progressive minded people, those stormlanders...

 

[Lethal]

I really don't have an issue with it. It's Westeros, people have done far worse stuff there.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

Sure, she's younger than him, but Dany's still his paternal aunt. Shit's not cool.

Maybe not! We don't know for sure yet! Also.... I'm cool with it. In real life I wouldn't be but in game of thrones I'm kinda into it

 

[Jon Stark]

If you sit back and think about it, much of what happens in the show after Neds death is actually Renly's fault. If Renly backs Stannis right away, Rob basically does the same. Which leaves the Lannisters pretty much landlocked and without any real allies. War is over pretty quickly at that point.

But we don't have a show to watch doe.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

I really don't have an issue with it. It's Westeros, people have done far worse stuff there.

What are we without semantics to argue over?