illegal immigration and the US workforce

[Seano]

hello Seano,

i am glad you expressed yourself!

i just think the automotive mode, where you reflexively attack the left - no matter what the topic at hand is - is a rather unfortunate trait that you have.

i understand that you probably can't help yourself, but i just thought i'd comment on it, friend.

- IGIT

The right is working hard to fix illegal immigration right now. The left is creating sanctuary cities screwing their own citizens to take a bogus moral stance. *shrug* How am I supposed to see it?

 

[IGIT]

hello JVS,

I think the most likely effect on working-class wages would be slightly negative.

What I was saying was that there are two main things to consider--increased value and thus demand for labor and increased supply of labor. So you can't really know the bottom-line effect just by thinking about it--you have to look at the evidence.

i've tried to read a bit on this topic, do you have anything you could link me to?

i'm not an economist, so my understanding on this is really just intuitive.

i figure that if there are suddenly no busboys, no fruitpickers, no low wage construction folks, etc, etc, then wages will just have to rise to the point where americans would be induced to take these jobs.

you're saying my understanding is incorrect.

i guess i'll read up a bit more on the subject.

- IGIT

 

[Jack V Savage]

i've tried to read a bit on this topic, do you have anything you could link me to?

i'm not an economist, so my understanding on this is really just intuitive.

i figure that if there are suddenly no busboys, no fruitpickers, no low wage construction folks, etc, etc, then wages will just have to rise to the point where americans would be induced to take these jobs.

you're saying my understanding is incorrect.

i guess i'll read up a bit more on the subject.

Yeah, that's probably best. Just look up studies on the issue. There are a lot, and I think you (IGIT--not necessarily everyone reading) can tell the difference between a legit one and a bogus one.

 

[helltoupee]

well my bad

I assumed the term illegal immigrant was referring to those that immigrated you know, illegally. Like from the onset, not the I stayed past my student or work visa

I'm pretty sure those types are in the minority, ie., types who snuck across the border, etc. with no dcumentation whatsoever.

Most "illegal immigrants" are people who came here legally, usually having a residential alien card (green card), but did not renew.

 

[helltoupee]

hello JVS,



i've tried to read a bit on this topic, do you have anything you could link me to?

i'm not an economist, so my understanding on this is really just intuitive.

i figure that if there are suddenly no busboys, no fruitpickers, no low wage construction folks, etc, etc, then wages will just have to rise to the point where americans would be induced to take these jobs.

you're saying my understanding is incorrect.

i guess i'll read up a bit more on the subject.

- IGIT

I think it depends on the business. For small business owners (ie Americans) who operate on a low profit margin, they would most likely go out of business, as they don't have the volume to compete with larger entities and therefore would be driven out of the market with their higher prices.

 

[nostradumbass]

We're talking about people, not drugs.

You cannot solve the illegal immigrant issue by focusing solely on the illegals. As you seem to indicate, that's difficult. It's very hard to focus on individuals.

Americans need to be held responsible as well, and more specifically American corporations and small businesses that hire illegals.

If there were no jobs here for them they would stop coming here.

No, they wouldn't. The social benefits of being here are much better than in their home country.

What do you mean "held responsible"? What punishment are you suggesting? Cutting off the supply of low wage labor does force them to hire legal workers and pay them.

 

[panamaican]

Here's what would happen. In the short run, americans would make more money.

In the long run, some other country would create a haven for those highly skilled people and gradually transform into the innovation capitla of the world. This would harm U.S. businesses and over time Americans would make less money.

We don't use H1B's on community college graduates. We use them on people with highly desirable skills. And those people keep us ahead of other nations while depriving their home nations of their specific talents. Win-Win. There is no reason to give that up.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

Pan is making a solid point

If we don't allow the highly skilled in, wouldn't they just go to say the Silicone Border in Mexico and other US offshoring based ventures that ultimately won't help exclusively the US?

 

[Rod1]

No, they wouldn't. The social benefits of being here are much better than in their home country.

What do you mean "held responsible"? What punishment are you suggesting? Cutting off the supply of low wage labor does force them to hire legal workers and pay them.

1.- Illegals are not chasing social benefits, and they arent always higher in America.

2.- Your argument about drugs is not analogous, its easier to crack on a business hiring 40 than looking for these 40 guys in the general population just for the business to replace them in particular

 

[Rational Poster]

No, they wouldn't. The social benefits of being here are much better than in their home country.

What do you mean "held responsible"? What punishment are you suggesting? Cutting off the supply of low wage labor does force them to hire legal workers and pay them.

Maybe the 10+ years of payroll taxes they've evaded deserves punishment for evading taxes.

 

[StrikerKing]

Highly skilled immigrants are vital for American tech companies to not only stay in business, but to continue to innovate and be competitive on the global scale. I work for a semi-conductor design and manufacturing company and we heavily rely on immigrants for process and product development engineers. The fact is there are simply not enough qualified or educated Americans, particularly in semiconductor physics, electrical theory, etc etc. Its the same for a great many tech and manufacturing companies. They NEED highly skilled immigrants because there simply aren't enough citizens that are highly trained/educated in STEM fields to fill the labor demand.

 

[nostradumbass]

1.- Illegals are not chasing social benefits, and they arent always higher in America.

2.- Your argument about drugs is not analogous, its easier to crack on a business hiring 40 than looking for these 40 guys in the general population just for the business to replace them in particular

Again, what does "crack down" entail? You can't really crack down on one without it affecting both sides.

Securing the border should be job 1, to ensure that more don't keep coming. From there they can focus on the existing supply.

Maybe the 10+ years of payroll taxes they've evaded deserves punishment for evading taxes.

I should have guessed the leftist solution is more taxes and more money to the government. I guess that's the solution to everything. Who would that help?

 

[Rod1]

Again, what does "crack down" entail? You can't really crack down on one without it affecting both sides.

Securing the border should be job 1, to ensure that more don't keep coming. From there they can focus on the existing supply.



I should have guessed the leftist solution is more taxes and more money to the government. I guess that's the solution to everything. Who would that help?

1.- Serious penalties for hiring illegals, as in you lose your entire business and go to jail. Once illegals find no jobs, they will stop coming or even go back to their home countries. Nobody goes to America to become a hobo.

2.- Most illegals didnt even crossed the desert, most went through checkpoints or overstayed their visas.

 

[Rational Poster]

Again, what does "crack down" entail? You can't really crack down on one without it affecting both sides.

Securing the border should be job 1, to ensure that more don't keep coming. From there they can focus on the existing supply.



I should have guessed the leftist solution is more taxes and more money to the government. I guess that's the solution to everything. Who would that help?

Why should some companies get a free pass on tax evasion?

Why don't we bear any responsibility for this issue?

 

[nostradumbass]

Why should some companies get a free pass on tax evasion?

Why don't we bear any responsibility for this issue?

What is it with you and taxes? I'm looking at ways to lift the floor, you're looking to lower the ceiling.

Here's what would happen. In the short run, americans would make more money.

In the long run, some other country would create a haven for those highly skilled people and gradually transform into the innovation capitla of the world. This would harm U.S. businesses and over time Americans would make less money.

We don't use H1B's on community college graduates. We use them on people with highly desirable skills. And those people keep us ahead of other nations while depriving their home nations of their specific talents. Win-Win. There is no reason to give that up.

That makes sense at a glance, but it turns out they aren't really hiring people through H-1B because they are just better or more qualified, it's because they are cheaper and their legal status/visa is tied to the company they work for so they can't go elsewhere. I believe something like 80% of H-1B holders are paid less than the median for their field.

I don't think anyone thinks they shouldn't exist at all, but tightening up the number of them and preventing companies from exploiting the system is something worth looking at.

1.- Serious penalties for hiring illegals, as in you lose your entire business and go to jail. Once illegals find no jobs, they will stop coming or even go back to their home countries. Nobody goes to America to become a hobo.

2.- Most illegals didnt even crossed the desert, most went through checkpoints or overstayed their visas.

Jail!? Goddamn, that's a little hardcore. I don't see how jailing people for hiring the wrong people would help anyone.

Not sure if you've seen the reactions to even the suggestion that illegals go back to their home countries or stop coming, with all the "this is my home", the crying, protesting, threats to sue, accusations of racism, and protection from dems who want their vote, but we'll call it optimistic at best to say they would just go back voluntarily.

 

[Rod1]

Jail!? Goddamn, that's a little hardcore. I don't see how jailing people for hiring the wrong people would help anyone.

Not sure if you've seen the reactions to even the suggestion that illegals go back to their home countries or stop coming, with all the "this is my home", the crying, protesting, threats to sue, accusations of racism, and protection from dems who want their vote, but we'll call it optimistic at best to say they would just go back voluntarily.

A lot of these protesters which are a minority tend to either be relatives or DREAMers, these of course wont go back because they have nowhere to go back to.

But the majority of foreign born illegals, these individuals do go back, they went back en masse when the recession hit in 2009.

 

[nac386]

There are a few points that come to mind.

Less illegal workers will likely lead to more employed Americans (who must be paid a more reasonable wage). That is good for working class Americans who would then have an easier time finding employment in those industries. But it is unavoidable that it will also raise costs a bit, which will have a mostly negative effect on the lower and middle class.

What we really need is immigration reform, not just more border security. Border security is a good thing, but does not solve the problem. If people cannot hop across the border then they will get here another way. It is not all that hard.

By immigration reform, I mean that we need to make it easier for upstanding citizens of foreign countries to immigrate to the United States legally. It should not take years, it should not cost a fortune. Those are the factors that create a situation in which people feel like they have to immigrate illegally. If those people were able to immigrate legally, they would work for normal wages and page normal taxes. In my opinion, that is good for everyone.

The last point I'll make, is that we often give large businesses (not small ones) a pass for screwing over their employees and customers. The gap between CEOs and the workers that they employ is massive these days, and they pretend that paying fair wages and paying for their employees healthcare would suddenly force them to fire people and raise wages.

No, it wouldn't. Maybe, just maybe, the guys making billions of dollars can actually afford to pay fair wages if they were not disgustingly greedy. Why would a company that is doing well enough to have multiple big-wigs making in the hundred-millions per year have to suddenly fire people in order to pay a fair wage? They wouldn't. They are just keeping all of the money instead of supporting the workers who do the grunt work.

My friend works for a company that recently got rid of their CEO (it was a board of directors type of thing), because he was doing a bad job. He got a $9 million parachute. Imagine that. You suck at your job, you cut your employees raises and eliminated their bonuses....then you get $9 million as a goodbye gift from your buddies.

Picture a bunch of rich guys sitting around a table, voting to give each other multi-million dollar bonuses for no reason at all. Then picture them claiming they'd have to fire people who are making $9 an hour if they had to pay them $10 an hour. That is what our country has become in some ways.

 

[nac386]

Looking forward to a polite greeting from @IGIT

 

[helltoupee]

There are a few points that come to mind.

Less illegal workers will likely lead to more employed Americans (who must be paid a more reasonable wage). That is good for working class Americans who would then have an easier time finding employment in those industries. But it is unavoidable that it will also raise costs a bit, which will have a mostly negative effect on the lower and middle class.

What we really need is immigration reform, not just more border security. Border security is a good thing, but does not solve the problem. If people cannot hop across the border then they will get here another way. It is not all that hard.

By immigration reform, I mean that we need to make it easier for upstanding citizens of foreign countries to immigrate to the United States legally. It should not take years, it should not cost a fortune. Those are the factors that create a situation in which people feel like they have to immigrate illegally. If those people were able to immigrate legally, they would work for normal wages and page normal taxes. In my opinion, that is good for everyone.

The last point I'll make, is that we often give large businesses (not small ones) a pass for screwing over their employees and customers. The gap between CEOs and the workers that they employ is massive these days, and they pretend that paying fair wages and paying for their employees healthcare would suddenly force them to fire people and raise wages.

No, it wouldn't. Maybe, just maybe, the guys making billions of dollars can actually afford to pay fair wages if they were not disgustingly greedy. Why would a company that is doing well enough to have multiple big-wigs making in the hundred-millions per year have to suddenly fire people in order to pay a fair wage? They wouldn't. They are just keeping all of the money instead of supporting the workers who do the grunt work.

My friend works for a company that recently got rid of their CEO (it was a board of directors type of thing), because he was doing a bad job. He got a $9 million parachute. Imagine that. You suck at your job, you cut your employees raises and eliminated their bonuses....then you get $9 million as a goodbye gift from your buddies.

Picture a bunch of rich guys sitting around a table, voting to give each other multi-million dollar bonuses for no reason at all. Then picture them claiming they'd have to fire people who are making $9 an hour if they had to pay them $10 an hour. That is what our country has become in some ways.

You make a very good point.

I read a study a few years ago which made the point that the American middle class were making less and less because of the huge disparity between officers' income (ie top heavy) and salaried workers, which was a trend that started in the mid 1990's. According to the study, the difference between the two had never been as drastic as it is now.

 

[nac386]

You make a very good point.

I read a study a few years ago which made the point that the American middle class were making less and less because of the huge disparity between officers' income and salaried workers, which was a trend that started in the mid 1990's. According to the study, the difference between the two had never been as drastic as it is now.

A lot of politicians are working hard to scapegoat illegal immigrants now as the cause of low wages, but in reality it is often directly the result of wealthy CEOs doing everything they can to squeeze every dime out of their employees.

It is morally criminal.

It is not even a new trick. It has been perpetrated over and over. For example, remember in the 80's when we had the war on drugs? Crack was destroying the ghetto, causing everyone to be broke and unemployed, right?

Wrong. They were broke and unemployed already. But that is complicated, so instead of actually doing something to help the economy, the politicians scapegoated crack as the cause and just sent more police in to arrest people. That way it looks like they are doing something to help the community on the evening news, while actually doing nothing at all to fix the root of the problem.

We live in a society that loves to demonize poor people, and celebrate rich people. There used to be a poster here, who is now banned, that would talk about how illegal immigrants caused white people in his hometown to lose their factory jobs.

....but who hired the illegal immigrants to replace the hometown citizens? Yeah, he had no problem with them. He held no ill-will towards the billionaires who got richer by firing the members of his community. He just hated those immigrants who they hired.