STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[BisexualMMA]

Agreed on this. I feel a bit bad for Rian Johnson, with the way some people want to shit on him instead of giving him credit for creating a great piece of cinema.

Thankfully, as has already been shown, MOST reactions to the film are actually positive. It's just that loud-as-hell minority who are trying to spoil the party.

And to be clear, I'm not saying no one should have criticisms about the film. But there's a difference between having criticisms and being a dick.

What criticisms do you think are unfair?

 

[BisexualMMA]

Dude, if that’s true that’s just spiteful and mean spirited.

I think that's the case.

Perhaps he classifies it as "being meta" or "expanding the possibilities" for the series, but it is what it is.

 

[D Train]

Out of curiosity, did you see Blade Runner 2049, and if so, what did you think about it?



Agreed on this. I feel a bit bad for Rian Johnson, with the way some people want to shit on him instead of giving him credit for creating a great piece of cinema.

Thankfully, as has already been shown, MOST reactions to the film are actually positive. It's just that loud-as-hell minority who are trying to spoil the party.

And to be clear, I'm not saying no one should have criticisms about the film. But there's a difference between having criticisms and being a dick.

It’s not a bad film, it’s a bad Star Wars film. You can’t just film whatever you want, ignoring decades of canon, slap “Star Wars” on it and expect SW fans to like it.

 

[Guestx]

*THE CENTRAL DILEMMA WAS THEIR FLEET WAS RUNNING OUT OF GAS! FFS. that was the best story they could come up with?

You see, I thought their central dilemma was that they were being threatened with imminent destruction by the First Order.

*Wasted a half hour on the useless casino plot

I appreciate the additional world-building.

*There is no one to care about in these movies, am i supposed to care about Rose? Finn? Asshole Pink hair lady? Mutant steroid horses? Feel sorry for Ren? Care about old, asshole Luke who spent the whole movie being an old asshole?

Why NOT care about them? I did.

 

[Guestx]

What criticisms do you think are unfair?

I think the general vitriolic tone, mean-spiritedness and occasional dishonesty from the really vocal fans who are on the negative side of things is fucked up.

It's like I said, it's one thing to have criticisms. It's another to just be a dick when there's no real reason for it.

 

[BisexualMMA]

I think the general vitriolic tone, mean-spiritedness and occasional dishonesty from the really fans who are on the negative side of things is fucked up.

It's like I said, it's one thing to have criticisms. It's another to just be a dick when there's no real reason for it.

Based on my interpretation of the film, I think there has perhaps never been such good reason for it.

I can honestly say I've never seen a film disrespect its audience so intentionally and, admittedly, skillfully.

Rian Johnson made his own bed here, and he made it with his eyes open.

 

[Guestx]

No doubt it was beautifully shot. It has the best visuals of any SW movie. But the mischaracterization of Luke is unforgivable. He’s a different person altogether.

I understand the criticism, but while you may not like how Luke it characterized--I may not have totally liked it either--it's not actually unrealistic or implausible.

Yes, he's a different dude, but the character has had decades of life that he's lived between ROTJ and TLJ. People can change in that much time and I think it's a natural inclination for people to grow more cynical as they grow older, especially if they've been through some trying shit.

And how is Rey so powerful with virtually no training? Force users have always required training. Always.

I agree that Rey becoming so adept so quickly is problematic. It didn't kill the movie for me, though.

Are the individual directors writing these things? That’s an actual question.

Actually . . . yes!

Disney obviously has a lot of input, but from what I've read Johnson was largely crafting his own story. He wasn't working off a template or outline that JJ Abrams left for him.

And for the next film, JJ will pretty much be doing the same thing.

 

[Guestx]

It’s not a bad film, it’s a bad Star Wars film. You can’t just film whatever you want, ignoring decades of canon, slap “Star Wars” on it and expect SW fans to like it.

You'll have to inform me, what canonical points did he fuck up?

Are you talking again about the characterization of Luke? Or use of the Force?

 

[Guestx]

Based on my interpretation of the film, I think there has perhaps never been such good reason for it.

I can honestly say I've never seen a film disrespect its audience so intentionally and, admittedly, skillfully.

Rian Johnson made his own bed here, and he made it with his eyes open.

I don't think he was being disrespectful in the way you say.

I think he's just working to help usher the series from the old guard (the Skywalkers) to the new. What do fans want, just stick with the same story forever? Never establish new leads with stories of their own?

 

[BisexualMMA]

I don't think he was being disrespectful in the way you say.

I think he's just working to help usher the series from the old guard (the Skywalkers) to the new. What do fans want, just stick with the same story forever? Never establish new leads with stories of their own?

All the pieces were in place to pass the torch to the new leads in rewarding ways if it were what he wanted to do. It is not at all what he wanted to do.

The film is a continuous series of inside jokes to himself and vitriol for the lore of Star Wars, hidden behind a facade of original trilogy aesthetics.

 

[moreorless87]

While Luke running away from it all for so long does seem like a disappointing choice for him to make, him being such an idealistic alter boy when it comes to the force in the OT help it make sense. The balance swung towards the dark side when he thought his “mastery” alone was enough to not allow that. The fallout was brutal and he became as jaded as he had been idealistic.

it was the same with Han to me, his returning to his position at the start of ANH just wipes out the wisdom we saw him gain across the original films. Honestly in Luke's case he regresses to a worse position than even the start of ANH where as least he's brave even if naive.

Again I wonder if the problem was that Disney weren't ok with this film radically changing the setup of force use. To me the obvious way to give Luke a purpose would be have had him redefining what it ment to be a Jedi or moving onto something else entirely, the film even teased us with this in its trailers. In the end though this amount to very little, some talk about the prequel Jedi's falling and generally looking to ignore the wisdom Yoda and Ben showed in the originals so they could reheat it again.

Without that theres not much left but to have Luke merely hiding away with little in the way of purpose which obviously doesn't reflect on his character well at all.

 

[Guestx]

All the pieces were in place to pass the torch to the new leads in rewarding ways if it were what he wanted to do. It is not at all what he wanted to do.

The film is a continuous series of inside jokes to himself and vitriol for the lore of Star Wars, hidden behind a facade of original trilogy aesthetics.

Wait. . .

So you think that Rian Johnson actually hates Star Wars and him taking the job as director was some kind of clever conspiracy-of-one to destroy the lore of the franchise, like he's some kind of Bond villain?

Did he sit in on meetings with Disney, feigning love for the series, while secretly he was thinking, "Soon!"?

 

[BisexualMMA]

Wait. . .

So you think that Rian Johnson actually hates Star Wars and him taking the job as director was some kind of clever conspiracy-of-one to destroy the lore of the franchise, like he's some kind of Bond villain?

Did he sit in on meetings with Disney, feigning love for the series, while secretly he was thinking, "Soon!"?

I don't know if he hates Star Wars, but his attitude seems to be that he is bigger than Star Wars and that whatever he can think of is vastly superior to what has preceded his entry into the franchise.

I'm not necessarily saying he intended to sabotage the entire franchise as a business, though that may be what he has done. But I am saying that he thought the intellectual payoff from destroying or devaluing previous Star Wars movies and characters in his Star Wars film was a greater artistic benefit than the loss of what he was throwing into the tire fire.

The film is incredibly arrogant. The value he places on his various bait-and-switches or visual gags or insulting symbolism is also incredibly arrogant. He values each of his bait-and-switch jokes or rug-pulling-expectation-subversions as individually higher than the thing he is destroying with the joke.

The end result is that the great things built up over previous films are traded in for pennies on the dollar.

 

[Guestx]

I don't know if he hates Star Wars, but his attitude seems to be that he is bigger than Star Wars and that whatever he can think of is vastly superior to what has preceded his entry into the franchise.

I'm not necessarily saying he intended to sabotage the entire franchise as a business, though that may be what he has done. But I am saying that he thought the intellectual payoff from destroying or devaluing previous Star Wars movies and characters in his Star Wars film was a greater artistic benefit than the loss of what he was throwing into the tire fire.

The film is incredibly arrogant. The value he places on his various bait-and-switches or visual gags or insulting symbolism is also incredibly arrogant. He values each of his bait-and-switch jokes or rug-pulling-expectation-subversions as individually higher than the thing he is destroying with the joke.

Well I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but really, he's just carrying forward themes that Lucas himself established, most notably in the prequels but also in the OT.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Well I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but really, he's just carrying forward themes that Lucas himself established, most notably in the prequels but also in the OT.

I don't want to sound like a broken record either, but I think he's pulled a fast one on a lot of people.

I've given a number of details of how I think what he did with this movie was disrespectful to a variety of people including the audience, and even perverse. But I also realize that repeating myself won't make people agree with me if they don't already.

However, I will also say again that I think the passage of time will see the view I've presented gain some popularity.

I also think he has seriously jeopardized his own Star Wars trilogy.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

did some last minute x-mas shopping today; afterwards needed to unwind so decided to go see this in IMAX.

Still think it is stuck between a 6 and 7 at best.

It just has no soul - if that makes sense. Dialogue is awful, writing (story telling) is weak, acting is ok but because of the previous gripes it just comes off as bad at times. Kylo is the biggest bitch in this new universe, Mary sue is mary sue (rey), Princess Leia is just cardboard, Luke is like a cranky old man (He'd fit in with the Grumpy Old Men characters); I don't really give a shit about any of the characters.

*also the whole Snoke deal was like. . . WTF?

Disney fucked up by making this obviously for the kids.

In all honesty the above mentioned issues just overshadowed any SJW or Ultra Feminism that was inserted.

I'll watch the final movie but only because I have invested in the first two.

The Light saber battle was Meh at best.

 

[armbarforhire]

I don't know if he hates Star Wars, but his attitude seems to be that he is bigger than Star Wars and that whatever he can think of is vastly superior to what has preceded his entry into the franchise.

I'm not necessarily saying he intended to sabotage the entire franchise as a business, though that may be what he has done. But I am saying that he thought the intellectual payoff from destroying or devaluing previous Star Wars movies and characters in his Star Wars film was a greater artistic benefit than the loss of what he was throwing into the tire fire.

The film is incredibly arrogant. The value he places on his various bait-and-switches or visual gags or insulting symbolism is also incredibly arrogant. He values each of his bait-and-switch jokes or rug-pulling-expectation-subversions as individually higher than the thing he is destroying with the joke.

Feels like he was on a mission to troll or humilliate characthers and fans.

-The Hux prank call.
-Calling Kylo's mask stupid, wich was one of the things people liked about him in the first one.
-Close up of Snoke dead Shadface with his tongue out.
-Luke basically wiping his ass with the ending of TFA scene when he trows the lightsaber away (it was not only that he refused the lightsaber, but the way he did it).
-That weird scene with Luke drinking milk from some alien Hippo with weird close up and all.
-Captain Phasma being useless again and getting killed (maybe she's the Carmine of SW ).

 

[Guestx]

I don't want to sound like a broken record either, but I think he's pulled a fast one on a lot of people.

I've given a number of details of how I think what he did with this movie was disrespectful to a variety of people including the audience, and even perverse. But I also realize that repeating myself won't make people agree with me if they don't already.

However, I will also say again that I think the passage of time will see the view I've presented gain some popularity.

Give me the bullet points again real quick. Other than the characterization of Luke, what is so disrespectful?

I mean, your argument can't be as simple as "casino sequence that was unnecessary" and "thin characterization of Phasma."

I also think he has seriously jeopardized his own Star Wars trilogy.

In what regard?

Making a shitload of money? Check.

Excellent reception with critics? Check ("Best since Empire")

High audience marks, aside from the vocal minority of fans who didn't like it? Check

So what could put his trilogy in jeopardy?

 

[BisexualMMA]

I mean, your argument can't be as simple as "casino sequence that was unnecessary" and "thin characterization of Phasma."

These are just garden variety moviemaking or writing flaws. There are several of them, but they are a completely separate issue from what I've been talking about.

 

[Guestx]

These are just garden variety moviemaking or writing flaws. There are several of them, but they are a completely separate issue from what I've been talking about.

So you're not going to give me bullet points?