37 Palestinians and counting dead, 1600 injured bc of Israel

[The Merchant]

Looks like you stopped reading the definition at the wrong point.

Nope. There;s nothing wrong with my position even some Israeli scholars argue the same as me. The founding fathers of Israel never even mentioned democracy.

 

[The Merchant]

Why on earth shouldn't Israel protect its land from these people that found their way through the fence and begins to scream Allahu akbar and that they will slaughter the Jews?

Peaceful protestors? More like militant terrorists.

You got a video with audio, instead of subtitles that way we can verify what was said.

 

[Muay o Muay]

https://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000636

I have seen various sources that claim that the Jewish population around 1945 were almost 1/3 of total population.

I was highlighting land ownership not population, however looking at that it shouldn't be to hard to understand why the Palestinians were a bit unsettled with the Jewish population growing from 7% to 30% in 30 years and them being offered half the land by the UN.

 

[therealdope]

this thread delivered exactly what I expected.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I think many Americans would approve of protecting its border from people supported and financed by terrorist organizations.

These are not immigrants looking for a better life.

They are looking for a better life, not just for themselves individually but for their homeland as a whole.

The anger of all those involved in this debate is amazing. Not one person here that I'm aware of is directly involved in the Israeli Palestinian conflict yet everyone is losing their minds. Direct negotiations between the interested parties is necessary but it seems that no-one is interested in actually resolving the situation.

I don't think you have to be directly involved to be outraged, with that said this specific conflict does uniquely rile people up it seems.

They were the aggressors... and for damned good reason.

Of course, what better reason than "God promised us this land"?

It's a liberal, democratic, multi-racial state with a vibrant economy in the middle of a bunch of intolerant backwater hellholes. I mean, just off the top of my head.

Has nothing to do with "muh democracy" or whatever, its religious lunacy centered around apocalyptic nonsense. If it was about supporting diverse democracies surrounded by authoritarian countries then evangelicals would support India over Pakistan but the coalitions they elect never do so and I certainly doubt there are as many Indian flags in evangelical churches as there are Israeli ones.

What I don't get about the 'Israel stole the land' argument is that wasn't the land stolen from them by the Arabs anyway? Aren't they just stealing back what was stolen from them? If you contend that land belongs to a single group of people based on nationalistic or ethnic grounds, the Israelis have a legitimate argument to steal back shit that was stolen from them, according to your own logic, don't they?

No the Arabs didn't take it from them, the Arabs took it from the Byzantine Empire. It was the Romans that took the land from them. The Arabs were less oppressive to the Jews of the region than Byzantium was so if anything the Arab conquests were an improvement for the remaining Jews there.

https://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000636

I have seen various sources that claim that the Jewish population around 1945 were almost 1/3 of total population.

1/3 the population but half the land, that sounds very fair...

The Jews had already been displacing Palestinians before the state of Israel even existed. It was so bad it lead to the Arab revolt of 1936-39 and despite the British ostensibly banning the displacement of Arabs the Jews continued to do so until...well until today really.

 

[Seaside]

Tell me, when are Turkey planning on leaving North Cyprus?

must be great to be turkish. nationalist ethno state, rich history of conquest. but has sunni islam brotherhood network to fall back on so protect them. If Turks were druze or hindus they would be screwed and surrounded. They can kill armenians, have persecuted jews, execute the gays, torture christians, expel greeks and christians and jail people who critcize and occupy cyprus and areas of Greece they won in past wars and nobody cares and 25% of the world being muslim will defend Turkey anyways for being sunni! It like the chinese in tibet or xinjiang can get away with anything.

Why on earth shouldn't Israel protect its land from these people that found their way through the fence and begins to scream Allahu akbar and that they will slaughter the Jews?

Peaceful protestors? More like militant terrorists.

if jewish liberals in the west stopped being hypocritical Jews would have more right wing allies. It that simple. Most non muslims on earth do not want these barbarians in their lands. I not antisemitic that just what i see like most rightwingers critizie jews for is hypocrisy it i any wonder you see posters in here spewing muslim islamic hate but then also pretending to care about muslim palestinians? of course not rooting for Israel enemy because israel to them is the center of jew world domination and jewish hypocrisy.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Has nothing to do with "muh democracy" or whatever, its religious lunacy centered around apocalyptic nonsense. If it was about supporting diverse democracies surrounded by authoritarian countries then evangelicals would support India over Pakistan but the coalitions they elect never do so and I certainly doubt there are as many Indian flags in evangelical churches as there are Israeli ones.

The "muh democracy", "muh guns" type of arguments are beneath you. It matters very much that Israel is a liberal democracy where Arab citizens vote, serve in the Knesset, etc. That doesn't excuse actions they take in dealing with the Palestinians, but it very much is a reason that as a state it ought to be supported. I wish that there were many Arab countries like that in the Middle East. Instead the Palestinians voted once and quickly devolved into an intolerant, squalid dictatorship.

As far as evangelicals go, there isn't nearly the same political support for India as there is for Israel, but there's massive evangelical support. Which is to say, evangelicals send much more money and missionaries to India than they do to Israel. If you think there isn't a preference for India over Pakistan among evangelicals, you are flat wrong.

I am not at all disputing who is right or wrong with the Palestinians and Israel. But the constant attempt to delegitimize a remarkable little state is ugly imo. And this is a huge part of why the issue has remained intractable. Palestine still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist When one considers Israel's diplomatic relationship with Arab states that recognize it as a legitimate state with a right to exist, they are generally constructive.

I think a big part of the distorted view Americans have toward Middle Eastern Arabs is that there is a disproportionate focus on the plight of the Palestinians, who are difficult to view positively. So we have the tendency to think of places like Jordan or Egypt as just a larger Gaza, which is a big error.

 

[Islam Imamate]

The "muh democracy", "muh guns" type of arguments are beneath you.

Lol, I appreciate the sentiment but I am definitely not above it unfortunately, I love using the "Muh x!" template.

It matters very much that Israel is a liberal democracy where Arab citizens vote, serve in the Knesset, etc. That doesn't excuse actions they take in dealing with the Palestinians, but it very much is a reason that as a state it ought to be supported. I wish that there were many Arab countries like that in the Middle East. Instead the Palestinians voted once and quickly devolved into an intolerant, squalid dictatorship.

No it doesn't matter at all as evidenced by our other allies in the region and our historic role in undermining democracy there. We support Israel because their interests align with ours and because there is a powerful pro-Israel lobby in our Congress.

Morsi's government in Egypt was democratic and yet we immediately recognized the coup in Egypt. If you believe we should support democracy then should we have supported the Morsi government? How about the Brotherhood government in Tunisia? If anything supporting a country in the middle of a fragile democratic transition makes more sense than supporting a stable, self sufficient democracy.

As far as evangelicals go, there isn't nearly the same political support for India as there is for Israel, but there's massive evangelical support. Which is to say, evangelicals send much more money and missionaries to India than they do to Israel. If you think there isn't a preference for India over Pakistan among evangelicals, you are flat wrong.

But there's virtually no political support for India, its all just charity work aimed at poverty alleviation and conversion. Nothing like the kind of political support that Israel gets from evangelical supporters.

I am not at all disputing who is right or wrong with the Palestinians and Israel. But the constant attempt to delegitimize a remarkable little state is ugly imo. And this is a huge part of why the issue has remained intractable. Palestine still doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist When one considers Israel's diplomatic relationship with Arab states that recognize it as a legitimate state with a right to exist, they are generally constructive.

I think a big part of the distorted view Americans have toward Middle Eastern Arabs is that there is a disproportionate focus on the plight of the Palestinians, who are difficult to view positively. So we have the tendency to think of places like Jordan or Egypt as just a larger Gaza, which is a big error.

I am not saying that Israel is not democratic, they clearly are though I'd say they are a flawed democracy. However, I am disputing the idea that its because they are a democracy that the US in general and evangelicals in particular support them. It has precious little to do with that, in the case of the former its politics and in the case of the latter its religious belief.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

No it doesn't matter at all as evidenced by our other allies in the region and our historic role in undermining democracy there. We support Israel because their interests align with ours and because there is a powerful pro-Israel lobby in our Congress.

Sure, but that wasn't the question I was answering.

Morsi's government in Egypt was democratic and yet we immediately recognized the coup in Egypt. If you believe we should support democracy then should we have supported the Morsi government? How about the Brotherhood government in Tunisia? If anything supporting a country in the middle of a fragile democratic transition makes more sense than supporting a stable, self sufficient democracy.

I was careful to specify liberal democracy.

But there's virtually no political support for India, its all just charity work aimed at poverty alleviation and conversion. Nothing like the kind of political support that Israel gets from evangelical supporters.

I think we agree? But look at the American evangelical who gave $1000 to a charity in India over the last five years and who factored in support for Israel as one of the many reasons he voted the way he did in the last election. Who are they supporting more in a practical sense?

I am not saying that Israel is not democratic, they clearly are though I'd say they are a flawed democracy. However, I am disputing the idea that its because they are a democracy that the US in general and evangelicals in particular support them. It has precious little to do with that, in the case of the former its politics and in the case of the latter its religious belief.

OK. All I can say is that as an American evangelical, I much prefer Israel as a tolerant, liberal democracy as opposed to the squalid, intolerant tyranny that is the Palestine Authority.

Of course I side with Israel generally speaking. They are an advanced society that has shown they can do right by their Arab citizens and their Arab neighbors. The Palestinians have had a violent relationship not only with Israel, but Syria and Jordan. No one wants to deal with them, but other Arab nations have sponsored their cause solely to be a thorn in Israel's side. Now that the political situation across the ME is broadly becoming a Gulf States-Israel vs Iran-Syria alignment, the Palestinians are going to find themselves increasingly isolated. I think they'd be smart to recognize Israel diplomatically and cut a deal for whatever two state option they can get. Israel is likely to offer one if negotiations are in good faith, as they have done so several times before.

 

[robotsonic]

No the Arabs didn't take it from them, the Arabs took it from the Byzantine Empire. It was the Romans that took the land from them. The Arabs were less oppressive to the Jews of the region than Byzantium was so if anything the Arab conquests were an improvement for the remaining Jews there.

So then you admit the Arabs stole it from someone then? So what makes it their land and how are the Israelis thieves when the Arabs also stole it? If you steal from a thief, does the thief have the right to complain? I'd say no.

Funny how Arabs were more than happy to observe the rule of power when they were the ones swinging the sword, but now all of a sudden it's theft?

Live by the sword, die by the sword. Perhaps the Arab world's current plight is karma for all the raping, conquering and forced conversions they forced on the world for centuries.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Lol, I appreciate the sentiment but I am definitely not above it unfortunately, I love using the "Muh x!" template.

Lol, fair enough. I rescind my comment.

 

[The Merchant]

A lovely 9 minute video on an American channel.

9 mins though, can anyone here sit still that long.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/how-a...-s-embassy-in-jerusalem-and-violence-in-gaza/

 

[The Merchant]

Make it even easier to view.

 

[Seaside]

They are looking for a better life, not just for themselves individually but for their homeland as a whole.

I don't think you have to be directly involved to be outraged, with that said this specific conflict does uniquely rile people up it seems.

Of course, what better reason than "God promised us this land"?

Has nothing to do with "muh democracy" or whatever, its religious lunacy centered around apocalyptic nonsense. If it was about supporting diverse democracies surrounded by authoritarian countries then evangelicals would support India over Pakistan but the coalitions they elect never do so and I certainly doubt there are as many Indian flags in evangelical churches as there are Israeli ones.

No the Arabs didn't take it from them, the Arabs took it from the Byzantine Empire. It was the Romans that took the land from them. The Arabs were less oppressive to the Jews of the region than Byzantium was so if anything the Arab conquests were an improvement for the remaining Jews there.

1/3 the population but half the land, that sounds very fair...

The Jews had already been displacing Palestinians before the state of Israel even existed. It was so bad it lead to the Arab revolt of 1936-39 and despite the British ostensibly banning the displacement of Arabs the Jews continued to do so until...well until today really.

arabs are honestly some of the most whinny and arrogant people on earth as collective group the palestinians were kicked out of jordan for their behavior and kuwait and put into camps in lebanon and syria. Upset that they get little land given up that they lost to the British and then they wage for decades unsuccessful genocidal wars. The fact that Israel has given citizenship and allowed arab politicians in the country to speak out against the jewish majority and say that israel should not be jewish state is insane. Fuck palestine honestly now all this stuff to me it obvious that it just islamoexpansionism and fascism.

they are lucky that jews a minority in world live there if it was Eastern orthodox christians or larger population of christians with Russian support or something they would all be dead.

Make it even easier to view.

 

[Diamond Jim]

I thought Jared was supposed to have this all figured out by now.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Sure, but that wasn't the question I was answering.

The guy asked why evangelicals support Israel and you responded by saying its because its a liberal democracy in an authoritarian region. I don't think that has much to do with evangelical support of Israel.

I was careful to specify liberal democracy.

The Tunisian transition was to a liberal democracy, they just happened to elect a fairly moderate Islamist party in their first election. But its not like they were mandating hijabs, if anything they were criticized for not being Islamist enough.

I think we agree? But look at the American evangelical who gave $1000 to a charity in India over the last five years and who factored in support for Israel as one of the many reasons he voted the way he did in the last election. Who are they supporting more in a practical sense?

But that's not political support for the state of India, that's poverty alleviation for individually poor Indians. They don't need to send charity money to Israel because its already a developed democracy but they nonetheless lend it a lot of political support and cover.

OK. All I can say is that as an American evangelical, I much prefer Israel as a tolerant, liberal democracy as opposed to the squalid, intolerant tyranny that is the Palestine Authority.

Of course I side with Israel generally speaking. They are an advanced society that has shown they can do right by their Arab citizens and their Arab neighbors. The Palestinians have had a violent relationship not only with Israel, but Syria and Jordan. No one wants to deal with them, but other Arab nations have sponsored their cause solely to be a thorn in Israel's side. Now that the political situation across the ME is broadly becoming a Gulf States-Israel vs Iran-Syria alignment, the Palestinians are going to find themselves increasingly isolated. I think they'd be smart to recognize Israel diplomatically and cut a deal for whatever two state option they can get. Israel is likely to offer one if negotiations are in good faith, as they have done so several times before.

Evangelicals as a whole support it because of their religious beliefs surrounding the third temple and the return of the Messiah.

I don't think they have done right by their Arab neighbors, not before they were a state and definitely not after though to be fair the Arabs aren't the best of neighbors either.

 

[The Merchant]

arabs are honestly some of the most whinny and arrogant people on earth as collective group the palestinians were kicked out of jordan for their behavior and kuwait and put into camps in lebanon and syria. Upset that they get little land given up that they lost to the British and then they wage for decades unsuccessful genocidal wars. The fact that Israel has given citizenship and allowed arab politicians in the country to speak out against the jewish majority and say that israel should not be jewish state is insane. Fuck palestine honestly now all this stuff to me it obvious that it just islamoexpansionism and fascism.

they are lucky that jews a minority in world live there if it was Eastern orthodox christians or larger population of christians with Russian support or something they would all be dead.

Inscius Pavo as the Romans might say.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

The guy asked why evangelicals support Israel and you responded by saying its because its a liberal democracy in an authoritarian region. I don't think that has much to do with evangelical support of Israel.

The Tunisian transition was to a liberal democracy, they just happened to elect a fairly moderate Islamist party in their first election. But its not like they were mandating hijabs, if anything they were criticized for not being Islamist enough.

But that's not political support for the state of India, that's poverty alleviation for individually poor Indians. They don't need to send charity money to Israel because its already a developed democracy but they nonetheless lend it a lot of political support and cover.

Evangelicals as a whole support it because of their religious beliefs surrounding the third temple and the return of the Messiah.

I don't think they have done right by their Arab neighbors, not before they were a state and definitely not after though to be fair the Arabs aren't the best of neighbors either.

Maybe. People love to generalize about evangelicals, but as an evangelical I'd say that while there is some merit to the religious reasons, they are over-emphasized. My answer was to state why I as an evangelical support the state of Israel.

 

[Islam Imamate]

So then you admit the Arabs stole it from someone then? So what makes it their land and how are the Israelis thieves when the Arabs also stole it? If you steal from a thief, does the thief have the right to complain? I'd say no.

Funny how Arabs were more than happy to observe the rule of power when they were the ones swinging the sword, but now all of a sudden it's theft?

Live by the sword, die by the sword. Perhaps the Arab world's current plight is karma for all the raping, conquering and forced conversions they forced on the world for centuries.

Yeah they did take it from Byzantium in the 7th century. Since then we've stopped acknowledging force as a legitimate way to claim land but fo course the Zionist don't believe that applies to them. That said, I get the feeling you have your mind made up on this topic and don't really care about the history either way. I mean, its not as if the Jews created the Kingdom of Israel through peace either, they were even more vicious than the Arab conquerors.

Btw forced conversion was actually pretty rare in Islamic history, most non-Muslims were allowed to keep their religion as long as they paid the Jizya, a poll tax.

 

[superpunch]

nm