SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Let's Pick the Week 125 Movie!

[FrontNakedChoke]

This was a tough choice between the two in the lead, for me.

Both look pretty damn good.

 

[the muntjac]

• Every second of Dennis Hopper in Blue Velvet.
• Leatherface's initial appearance in The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

I’m gonna mash two of yours together and say every scene with Dennis Hopper in TCM2. There’s a chainsaw duel!

Haha, I was expecting something after seeing you call it the GOAT war film. It’s a good movie, but it drags for me in some spots and feels a little too long.

Although, it gets points for featuring Iron City beer and Rolling Rock before Rolling Rock was national.

 

[Yotsuya]

1) The post-robbery shootout in Heat. Quite possibly my favorite stretch of cinema.

I just watched Ronin. Incredible how hard it is to make even an adequate shoot out scene, not to mention one that hits the sweep spot as perfectly as Mann does in Heat.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I’m gonna mash two of yours together and say every scene with Dennis Hopper in TCM2. There’s a chainsaw duel!



Haha, I was expecting something after seeing you call it the GOAT war film. It’s a good movie, but it drags for me in some spots and feels a little too long.

Although, it gets points for featuring Iron City beer and Rolling Rock before Rolling Rock was national.

Ha! Yeah, Hopper brought some good times to TCM2. Funny you should mention that flick since it's gonna be a nominee.

It's a long movie that doesn't always travel at the same pace. I'll give you that. Personally I love how it covers before, during, and after going to war and various tolls it can take. Great acting too. At least it warmed your heart being set in your neck of the woods. And sorry, Rolling Rock sucks. But not as bad as Yuengling!!

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I just watched Ronin.

That one bored the shit out of me for whatever reason.

 

[Yotsuya]

That one bored the shit out of me for whatever reason.

I gave it another chance because of the Mamet script, but it was still pretty bad.

 

[Bullitt68]

GOAT war film.

Mr. Blonde and Stealers Wheel in Reservoir Dogs.
Ed Harris reviving his bitch ex-wife in The Abyss

That one bored the shit out of me for whatever reason.

Man, the more you post, the more I realize how closely aligned our sensibilities seem to be. One tweak though: If I were going to pull out a scene from The Abyss - which would be on a top five list for me of the most underrated movies out there - it'd be the scene that I just call the drop. "Knew this was one way ticket." Fuck, man. That'd be a serious contender for top five status on a GOAT scene list.

There was a little finagling because of people jumping in, but when this phase ends, we'll normalize everything and get it set up [...] but I like that it's not simply assigned cold like that and we have room in case things change.

Another thing that could work: You or europe could make a post at the start of a new cycle laying out the schedule. That way, everyone knows the lay of the land at the outset and if there's any shuffling to be done once the cycle is underway then everyone would still know what's going on and could adjust things accordingly.

Basically, I'm the type of person who likes to know what's going on at all times.* I'm not spontaneous and I don't like surprises. I like plans and order. If you and europe want to change things up at some point for some reason, that's your call, but so long as I can follow along and know what's going on, I'd be a happy camper. And since I thought there might be others who feel similarly, I figured I might as well put it on the table for club consideration.

*It's rare that I fail to find the right Seinfeld clip on Youtube, but pretend that after this remark I posted the scene from "The Parking Space" where Kramer incessantly questions Jerry about what George and Elaine are doing and Jerry gives him shit for needing to know everything.

First of all, we're talking "scenes" here, not "moments". It has to be an entire segment of a story. Some of the ideas that came to my head we're split-second affairs, pure in the moment happenstances.

Oh, I'm with you there, man. I'd have a very different list if it were "moments" instead of "scenes." And I actually think that it'd be harder to limit a list of moments to five. Hell, even 10 or 20 would be hard.

Jesus in God Told Me To (one of the biggest WTF moments in my cinematic-life. It works better on VHS though since the brightness of DVD makes it waaay to clear what you're watching, while the murkiness of VHS is fittingly obscure)

Of course you've seen that movie. If you didn't exist, I bet I could've gone the rest of my movie watching life never running into someone who'd bring up having seen that movie. But leave it to europe to drop God Told Me To.

I would've never had a reason to tell this story, but since you'll appreciate it, here you go. I actually met Larry Cohen. One of my old undergrad professors was plugged into the film and TV scene back in the day and he'd somehow crossed paths with him. He asked Cohen to come and do a guest lecture during his "Films of the '70s" class. Cohen talked mostly about Black Caesar and It's Alive and discussed the exploitation/B-movie arena. But he also brought up God Told Me To. I can't remember if I took that class in 2009 or 2010, but either way, it was shortly after The Dark Knight came out, and Cohen talked about how Nolan either ripped him off for the funeral scene with all the cops or else great minds really do think alike. Then he showed the early parade sequence in God Told Me To.

Ok, cool. This old school guy shows a pretty bad ass scene from one of his under-the-radar films that's similar to a bad ass scene from The Dark Knight. So I file that movie, which I'd never heard of before, away in my memory banks for future viewing. A couple of years later, I DVR it on TCM. Needless to say, nothing that he said during that guest lecture and nothing in the clip that he showed could've prepared me for that one-of-a-kind-what-in-the-absolute-fuck-am-I-watching ending. Later that day, a friend of mine was coming over and he's my main movie friend. I saved God Told Me To in the DVR, and as soon as he showed up, I told him to just sit there and watch this insane scene. There was no way I was going to be the only person to watch and wonder WTF that was that day. He was coming along for that insane ride that day

Spoiler

The Death of Frank in Once Upon A Time in the West.

Even though Once Upon a Time in the West came out probably before all of us were born, your moment is a spoiler moment, so I tagged it. But, on the subject of Leone, my #1 Leone moment is that moment when De Niro as old Noodles looks through the slit in the wall in Once Upon a Time in America and the power of the nostalgia transports him back in time and turns him into young Noodles. @Rimbaud82 and @moreorless87, we spent a week talking about Tarkovsky and time, well, you want the most beautifully poetic and profound meditation on time in the cinema, skip Tarkovsky and go to Once Upon a Time in America. That moment is one of the most powerful in movies. I'm sure we've all had an experience like that, where the charge of a memory is so powerful that our minds really do take us back in time. To capture it so simply and so beautifully like that, that's the stuff that genius is made of.

I haven't even included Full Metal Jacket, Sword of Doom, Get Carter, Chinatown... dear lord.

Don't worry about that one. I'm sure Sly knows how much you love him and how you think that his remake is light years in front of the original.

Spoiler

I have some problems with Deer Hunter.

Listen muntjac, you're a cool guy and all, but that's the kind of talk that can get your head bounced off a coffee table, and if that happens, I'll be sad about it, but I'll also be Cubo's Tom Sizemore.

It’s a good movie, but it drags for me in some spots and feels a little too long.

In all seriousness, once you wrap your head around the fact that it's a slow movie and it's meant to feel like that, so that (a) the war sequence can feel as jarring as it's supposed to feel and (b) the pain of the aftermath can linger as long as it's supposed to, then the pacing should end up enhancing the movie.

Interestingly, one of the only people to really hit on how crucial the pacing is was Tarantino in an old Channel 4 thing that he did in the UK talking about De Niro's work during the time period when, as he puts it in the special, De Niro "was God."

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Man, the more you post, the more I realize how closely aligned our sensibilities seem to be. One tweak though: If I were going to pull out a scene from The Abyss - which would be on a top five list for me of the most underrated movies out there - it'd be the scene that I just call the drop. "Knew this was one way ticket." Fuck, man. That'd be a serious contender for top five status on a GOAT scene list.

Funny you mention that because I've noticed us regularly voting for the same films. As for the Abyss, yeah...that was some powerful stuff. Especially on the heels of the scene I mentioned (which has brought me to tears probably every viewing). The Abyss is one I bought on laser disc for the extra scenes. I agree it doesn't seem to get the love maybe it should. Could be it's length. Could be the ticket turning out to be more of a round trip.

 

[Bullitt68]

Funny you mention that because I've noticed us regularly voting for the same films.

As for the Abyss, yeah...that was some powerful stuff. Especially on the heels of the scene I mentioned (which has brought me to tears probably every viewing). The Abyss is one I bought on laser disc for the extra scenes.

QFT. And if you haven't seen the three-hour version of The Abyss then you haven't seen The Abyss. More often than not, deleted scenes are deleted scenes for a reason. I'm fine with just watching Apocalypse Now. I don't need to go Redux. But if you're not watching the three-hour version of The Abyss then you're literally watching a different movie. Those scenes change the core of the film, and so clearly to its detriment.

Luckily, I taped it off of the Fox Movie Channel back in the day and it was the full version. Then, when I was 14, I did a tour of the Fox Lot and bought the Special Edition DVD in one of the shops on the Lot

We never had Laser Disc in my house, though. Other than science documentaries made for school kids that we'd have screened for us when I was in elementary school, I've never even watched anything on Laser Disc. How did it look? Was Laser Disc noticeably different from VHS?

I agree it doesn't seem to get the love maybe it should.

It doesn't help that Cameron's been dragging his heels on releasing a Blu-ray version. That's the #1 most obvious "isn't but should be on Blu-ray" movie out there. But even that doesn't come close to explaining why that amazing movie isn't widely recognized as being an amazing movie. You've got Ed Harris being his always awesome self but even more awesome than his normal awesome; Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio throwing down as IMO the ultimate Cameron female with the perfect combination of beauty, brains, and balls; and Michael motherfucking Biehn turning in one of my all-time favorite performances. Robbed of both an Oscar nomination and win, Biehn kills so hard as Coffey. When he's losing his shit and cutting himself up under the table? And no joke, I say it in my head so often at opportune moments and have even sometimes said it aloud because I find it so hilariously unnerving when he's officially off the deep end and he has that line, "We may have to take steps"

Could be it's length.

Nah, Avatar is only like 10 minutes shy and Titanic is like half an hour longer. It is weird, though. My friend LOVES Avatar and I've been recommending The Abyss for years. He finally got around to watching it a few months ago and loves it almost as much and couldn't stop talking about how he couldn't believe that he hadn't seen it sooner.

Could be the ticket turning out to be more of a round trip.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Those scenes change the core of the film, and so clearly to its detriment.

I couldn't even tell you what they were now, having not watched it since many times back in the day. I remember the difference being those scenes driving home more of the environmental message.

How did it look? Was Laser Disc noticeably different from VHS?

They definitely looked different. Better quality than tape. Plus you would get far more letterboxed versions. The ability to change aspect ratio. Commentary tracks. They'd tack extras on to help fetch the price and sell the platform. Director's cuts. Behind the scenes stuff. Some examples below.

• Basic Instinct with the stuff cut to get an R rating.
• Fatal Attraction with alternate ending.
• JFK director's cut.
• Lawnmower Man with shit that still didn't make it good.

You've got Ed Harris being his always awesome self but even more awesome than his normal awesome; Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio throwing down as IMO the ultimate Cameron female with the perfect combination of beauty, brains, and balls; and Michael motherfucking Biehn turning in one of my all-time favorite performances. Robbed of both an Oscar nomination and win, Biehn kills so hard as Coffey. When he's losing his shit and cutting himself up under the table? And no joke, I say it in my head so often at opportune moments and have even sometimes said it aloud because I find it so hilariously unnerving when he's officially off the deep end and he has that line, "We may have to take steps"

Excellent synopsis! Never thought of Biehn being Oscar-worthy there. But yeah, he brought it. Had to in order to not get embarrassed by Ed's work. Nearly his best, behind this one.

Spoiler

 

[moreorless87]

Even though Once Upon a Time in the West came out probably before all of us were born, your moment is a spoiler moment, so I tagged it. But, on the subject of Leone, my #1 Leone moment is that moment when De Niro as old Noodles looks through the slit in the wall in Once Upon a Time in America and the power of the nostalgia transports him back in time and turns him into young Noodles. @Rimbaud82 and @moreorless87, we spent a week talking about Tarkovsky and time, well, you want the most beautifully poetic and profound meditation on time in the cinema, skip Tarkovsky and go to Once Upon a Time in America. That moment is one of the most powerful in movies. I'm sure we've all had an experience like that, where the charge of a memory is so powerful that our minds really do take us back in time. To capture it so simply and so beautifully like that, that's the stuff that genius is made of.

I would point out I'v often talked about Once Upon A Time in America as a strong contender for my favourite film, certainly in my top 10. Its definitely more accessible than Tarkovsky is although I would say when people talk about "time" in the latters work there not really talking about a sense of history to a character/setting(although they often have this) so much as his visual style that depends heavy on movement of the camera and elements within the composition, basically differentiating it from say photography and films that depend on a more fixed style akin to it.

Both of them do clearly work very strongly via tone though and I think America represented Leone hitting a peak there, you see the same thing he parts of Once Upon A Time In The West but here its carried more effectively across an entire film. The reason why that Noodles flashback works so well is that the film prior to this has evoked such an effective sense of nostalgic regret with his returning to NY and Moes bar setting it up, its a nicely done moment but without that buildup it wouldn't amount to much.

 

[europe1]

Also, in memory of Burt Reynolds...

Personal favorite Burt movie (except Boogie Nights/Deliverance, may-perhaps)

1) Chestburster scene from Alien

A classic for all the right reasons.

3) the car chase through the mall in blues brothers

I prefer the car-piles.

My buddy who uses the handle "Yojimbo" has his five:

If he truly was Yojimbo he would have known to include this scene.

2) Gomer Pyle's 7.62 millimeter full metal jacket scene from Full Metal Jacket

4) Leon getting the Voigt-Kampff test from Blade Runner

How you can prefer that over the Tears in the Rain moment, I'll never know.

My personal favorite though:

Showdown in Little Tokyo:

Best line in Film History.

Stallone was going to say it in Rocky 4 but he didn't have the guts to admit it.

Sup lads

Still waiting for your Mad Max write-up from Week 3, bro.

5. Gladiator (2000), Battle in Germania

I'm partial to the Chariot Scene.

Spoiler

4. The Deer Hunter (1978), Russian Roulette Scene.

I always wanted to yell Didi Mau to people.

Hope your back is recovering smoothly, btw

1. Once Upon A Time in the West (1968), Opening Scene

Out For Justice

I've always liked the out-of-nowhere random philopizing in On deadly Ground

Big Trouble In Little China

But, even though I was never a proper fan of the man, I did always like him

I heard he one said to said: "I might not be the best actor in the world. But I'm the best Burt Reynolds in the World". I think that encapsulates his charm. Never been a fan of him either, but he always seemed likable enough.

1) The post-robbery shootout in Heat. Quite possibly my favorite stretch of cinema.

I'm pretty sure gun-nuts use the sounds of that scene as meditation-noise like how housemoms use wale-songs or shit like that.

3) The Mako scene in The Sand Pebbles (europe knows the one I mean). No spoilers, but damn.

Wouldn't put it in my Top 10, but yeah, powerful.

4) The ending of Inception. Not the crazy set-pieces, not the big dream confrontations with Mal. I'm all about those last couple of minutes from the plane to the airport and back home.

I think the "watching children's decade-old recordings" probably topped it for me. Ending is underrated, though.

Sideways

4) When Marty is in the future. I'm still waiting for this reality with pizza.

When I was at my last year of high-school (or whatever you yanks call it). We we're tasked with writing some essay about what we wanted to do/experience in the future or something like that. Instead, I spend the entire essay bitching about the fact that we were just a few years removed from 2015 and none of the Back To the Guture gadgets had been invented yet. Like the Pizza, or the Self-trying shoe. Then I got bored midway through and just started throwing shade at my classmates. I was a model student.

5) Jurassic Park when the T-Rex is first escaping the fence.

I very strongly considered a Jerry Lewis week

Jerry Lewis in anything save King of Comedy....... and maybe Ladies Man.

I’m gonna mash two of yours together and say every scene with Dennis Hopper in TCM2. There’s a chainsaw duel!

but it drags for me in some spots and feels a little too long.

If you thought Deer Hunter dragged in spots, then you should definitively check out Chimino's other masterpiece, Heaven's Gate! He fixes all, ALLL of the pacing issues that bothered people in Deer Hunter. That movie skips along at a zip-zip-zap tempo! Speedy all the way to the end!

Another thing that could work: You or europe could make a post at the start of a new cycle laying out the schedule. That way, everyone knows the lay of the land at the outset and if there's any shuffling to be done once the cycle is underway then everyone would still know what's going on and could adjust things accordingly.

I don't really understand what the confusion is about here. We have a list. The turns just follow that list (save the rare instances where someone switches weeks, like Cuthulu/sickc). And then we have a Royal Rumble at the end. Shouldn't people understand who is next just by looking at the order of that list and taking into consideration whose week we're voting for this time? So next week we're voting for LHWBelt picks, for instance.

Are you thinking more along the lines of me making a list like:

Week 120 - europe
Week 121 - MusterX
Week 122 - Scott Parker

That just seems excessive to me.

If you and europe want to change things up at some point for some reason, that's your call, but so long as I can follow along and know what's going on, I'd be a happy camper.

Sure I'll let people know ahead of time if we're doing something different. Problem is just that either it's very last-minute (like people switching weeks) or it's a suprise (like that moderator who just joined with his crazy Bruce Lee week).

Needless to say, nothing that he said during that guest lecture and nothing in the clip that he showed could've prepared me for that one-of-a-kind-what-in-the-absolute-fuck-am-I-watching ending

I would post Gifs and make jokes about this. But considering the nature of those scenes.... I'm pretty sure I'd be banned.

But leave it to europe to drop God Told Me To.

nd Cohen talked about how Nolan either ripped him off for the funeral scene with all the cops or else great minds really do think alike. Then he showed the early parade sequence in God Told Me To.

Cohen is a darn good B-movie-maker but he really does like to grandiose himself whenever he gets the opportunity to.

There was no way I was going to be the only person to watch and wonder WTF that was that day. He was coming along for that insane ride that day

So... if one we're to consider a Holy Trilogy of cinematic What-The-Fuckery? We have the ending of God Told Me To. And then there is the Subway freakout in Possession (which you have seen). But have you ever witnessed... The Shuttering in Society?

Even though Once Upon a Time in the West came out probably before all of us were born, your moment is a spoiler moment, so I tagged it. But, on the subject of Leone, my #1 Leone moment is that moment when De Niro as old Noodles looks through the slit in the wall in Once Upon a Time in America and the power of the nostalgia transports him back in time and turns him into young Noodles.

That's definitively in contention for my Top 10 list too. There are just too many such splendid moments in Cinema History to keep track of.

De Niro and Woods peering through the port-hole also has a similar poetic attraction, but the Nostalgia-moment in the begining of the film tops-it.

I sort of changed my mind about Frank's death in that movie. It works magnificently as a scene. It should be transported from the Moment-category to the Scene-category.

Don't worry about that one. I'm sure Sly knows how much you love him and how you think that his remake is light years in front of the original.

 

[MusterX]

I always wanted to yell Didi Mau to people.

Hope your back is recovering smoothly, btw

My back is better but sooner later I'm going to have to pay the piper.

Sean Penn also said "didi mau gentleman" in the film Casualties of War but I can't find a clip of it for some reason. I tell my wife didi mau sometimes and she just rolls her eyes at me. I'll go in the kitchen looking for dinner and yell didi mau in my best Asian voice. Its hilarious to me every time, her not so much.

 

[the muntjac]

Ha! Yeah, Hopper brought some good times to TCM2. Funny you should mention that flick since it's gonna be a nominee.

And sorry, Rolling Rock sucks. But not as bad as Yuengling!!

Rolling Rock does suck now. It was better when it was brewed in glass tanks, but once it was bought by Anheuser, they switched to aluminum tanks, and it has definitely suffered. Yuengling is based out of the other side of the state, so more Philly than Pittsburgh. Although, I do enjoy an occasional Yuengling. Where Rolling Rock's old brewery was in Latrobe is actually where Iron City Beer is now brewed. Although, I don't really drink any of these that much because Pittsburgh's craft brewery scene is pretty great.

Listen muntjac, you're a cool guy and all, but that's the kind of talk that can get your head bounced off a coffee table, and if that happens, I'll be sad about it, but I'll also be Cubo's Tom Sizemore.

If you thought Deer Hunter dragged in spots, then you should definitively check out Chimino's other masterpiece, Heaven's Gate! He fixes all, ALLL of the pacing issues that bothered people in Deer Hunter. That movie skips along at a zip-zip-zap tempo! Speedy all the way to the end!

In all seriousness, once you wrap your head around the fact that it's a slow movie and it's meant to feel like that, so that (a) the war sequence can feel as jarring as it's supposed to feel and (b) the pain of the aftermath can linger as long as it's supposed to, then the pacing should end up enhancing the movie.

My main problem was the wedding scene, which feels fluffed and could have been shortened and conveyed the same idea. I don't doubt your point about the juxtaposition of the pacing and what it was meant to achieve, but I do know when I feel bored watching something, I'm not enjoying it. I'm not saying that about the entirety of the film, only parts. Once again, it's a good movie, and I understand why people like it.

Interestingly, one of the only people to really hit on how crucial the pacing is was Tarantino in an old Channel 4 thing that he did in the UK talking about De Niro's work during the time period when, as he puts it in the special, De Niro "was God."

Who would win in a fight? De Niro or God?

When I was at my last year of high-school (or whatever you yanks call it). We we're tasked with writing some essay about what we wanted to do/experience in the future or something like that. Instead, I spend the entire essay bitching about the fact that we were just a few years removed from 2015 and none of the Back To the Guture gadgets had been invented yet. Like the Pizza, or the Self-trying shoe. Then I got bored midway through and just started throwing shade at my classmates. I was a model student.

Personally, I think you made the right choice with that essay.

And look where you've made it now. President...er, um...Prime Minister of this fine club.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I'm pretty sure gun-nuts use the sounds of that scene as meditation-noise like how housemoms use wale-songs or shit like that.

Yeah. So?

Rolling Rock does suck now. It was better when it was brewed in glass tanks, but once it was bought by Anheuser, they switched to aluminum tanks, and it has definitely suffered. Yuengling is based out of the other side of the state, so more Philly than Pittsburgh. Although, I do enjoy an occasional Yuengling. Where Rolling Rock's old brewery was in Latrobe is actually where Iron City Beer is now brewed. Although, I don't really drink any of these that much because Pittsburgh's craft brewery scene is pretty great.

I spent my PA years in Philly. Never actually had Iron City Beer unless maybe that time I went to a Steelers game. You familiar with Stoudts? I went there a few times.

 

[europe1]

Wait... ain't I forgetting something?
.
.
.

We Have A Winner!

​

White Lighting wins the poll with 7 votes! Okay people, let's watch Reynolds hornswoggle another southern Sheriff! Got to love that sales pitch though, "Booze-Running, Motor-Gunning, Law-Breaking, Hip-Shaking, Man-Teasing (wait, what!?), Woman-Pleasing (so... he's bisexual?), Fast-Acting (wouldn't action be more appropriate?) Excitement!"

Personally, I'm just glad Cannonball Run didn't win. That movie is abysmal.

Members: @europe1 @MusterX @Scott Parker 27 @the muntjac @Cubo de Sangre @sickc0d3r @FrontNakedChoke @AndersonsFoot @Tufts @Coolthulu @Yotsuya @jei @LHWBelt @ArtemV @Bullitt68 @Deus Ex Machina @HenryFlower @Rimbaud82

​

 

[FrontNakedChoke]

We Have A Winner!​

​

White Lighting wins the poll with 7 votes! Okay people, let's watch Reynolds hornswoggle another southern Sheriff! Got to love that sales pitch though, "Booze-Running, Motor-Gunning, Law-Breaking, Hip-Shaking, Man-Teasing (wait, what!?), Woman-Pleasing (so... he's bisexual?), Fast-Acting (wouldn't action be more appropriate?) Excitement!"

Personally, I'm just glad Cannonball Run didn't win. That movie is abysmal.

Members: @europe1 @MusterX @Scott Parker 27 @the muntjac @Cubo de Sangre @sickc0d3r @FrontNakedChoke @AndersonsFoot @Tufts @Coolthulu @Yotsuya @jei @LHWBelt @ArtemV @Bullitt68 @Deus Ex Machina @HenryFlower @Rimbaud82

​

I'm into it. Both this and Sharky's looked fun.

 

[FrontNakedChoke]

Top five scenes I can picture in my head right now:

The Shining Bigwheel scene
The Shining Elevator scene
The Shining Here's Johnny scene
The Shining chase scene
The Shining maze scene

I like The Shining a lot.

 

[JayPettryMMA]

And after everyone watches White Lightning (and Gator as well), they should watch...GATOR 2

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Personally, I'm just glad Cannonball Run didn't win. That movie is abysmal.

Amen to that.