Boxing vs Kickboxing for MMA

[Torrid]

I don't really understand the responses here. A lot of the responses are pretending that MMA is full of kickboxers with poor boxing - nah, most of these dude's just straight suck at striking and are terrible kickboxers.

Also seems like there's a real over-saturation of wrestle-boxers still finding success but not really at the top level any more.

I'd always recommend kickboxing, for what I assume are obvious reasons.

 

[j123]

Boxing imo, not as what it comes with, but it blends better with wrestling compared to KB and MT

There needs to be a balance, not a one or the other. Many cases I've seen in person that a lack of any MT or kick + clinch defense has cost fighter's their fights, on the other hand a lack of boxing distance has cost more KB oriented strikers their fights as well.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

i wasnt talking about ground game if u get taken down even once thats biggg on the score cards if u dont take me down then you gonna lose that round unless u submit me cause takedowns score the most of anything which tbh i think is fair since takedowns take so much energy.

point is guys are smart and realize guys cant really use the thai clinch unless the guy is already hurt against the fence with hand sup then guys will rip a few knees but other than that its hard to make a lot of the thai stuff work with knees

If you are fighting a person who is more proficient with the take down you have to be more careful with kicks. Both kicks and punches have pros and cons against a takedown. Kicks can be caught, and punches can be ducked under. But low kicks can hit from further out. Further out is harder for opponent to get takedown. With punches even if ducked under, can still sprawl.

I remember there is an interview with Chael Sonnen about wrestling for MMA. He is quoted say the rhetorical question, "if I have single leg, do I have your leg, or do you have my arms?" Or something along those lines.

yeah people act like if u do boxing for your mma that u somehow will never know what a kick is lol. kicking is the easiest thing t develop well low kicks at least which is what guys use. were not doing karate kicks that take eyars to master. u an get a decent leg kick in a month so teaching someone boxing which has a solid stance good for changing levels to mix in with takedowns good footwork and fast hands to set other things up it is a no brainer especially if you like to grapple as well

If you mean that boxing stance is easier to shoot from, you can do other types of throws especially from clinch using a KB stance, whatever that is. You can even do takedowns from the point karate stance.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Somebody understands it. People think just because you have more options it automatically translates to a better outcome. Having a few solid go to techniques that you drill like a mad man will make you a mad man in that range. Also you're reaction time will be sick.

I think boxers have some of the quickest reactions in any sport. In order to dodge fists on a regular you have to develop your ability to react. I'll watch high level boxers and be like...how in the heck did he dodge that, and you see it in slow motion it's insane. So, I agree, depends on the person but quality over quantity.

You can train under more open rulesets while still having only a few go to tech for that ruleset. An important aspect of training under more open ruleset is learn to defend the different attacks that can come at you.

Boxers have quick reactions under their own rulesets. The learn to see punches coming. How they be able to dodge or defend kicks? Or what if you can actively clinch and attack? With clinching I bet their reactions get slower.

 

[dudeguyman]

I did kickboxing and found that I lack boxing knowledge so pick your poision , it depends on how tall you are. If you have wrestling then defending takedowns is easy, what do you need the kicks for?
You can learn the few kicks of kickboxing on your own, it's not rocket science. If you're short then you can only hit low targets, half the kicks are for high targets so you've just wasted half of your years training kicks that you can't use.

I was saving this for another post (the one i got yellow for) about a roundhouse but here it is, this is a "perfect roundhouse" executed by real pros, the highest you can kick effectively is below shoulder level.

View attachment 443547

What'd you get yellow for?

 

[dudeguyman]

Which do you think better prepares fighters for MMA? Provided that ground game is covered, what style do you think better suits MMA striking?

If you can throw shin checks into the mix I'd bet on boxing.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

Boxers have quick reactions under their own rulesets. The learn to see punches coming. How they be able to dodge or defend kicks? Or what if you can actively clinch and attack? With clinching I bet their reactions get slower.

Once you can see punches coming kicks are even easier because they're less subtle in movement, and more slow, and they require more body involvement and a LOT more commitment in general. The jab takes by far the least, not even in the same universe of proximity, relatively speaking.

----

If neither guy knows anything about what the other's art is about, the MT guy will likely win., as they did when this was the case.

If both of them know what the other is working with and has had a few months / dabbling(sparring in his gym with those types) beforehand, a decent boxer will bully the decent kickboxer because most of them leave very large holes to exploit that they are unaware of (not part of the purist curriculum).

Kickboxing defense is not difficult to learn and adapt to, but boxing defense is even more difficult than boxing offense, which relies on far more mechanical nuances and subtleties .. a more solid and developed set of basics, than any other striking art

Both is best, clearly. The art that relies most by cultivating and cleverly leveraging the basics is the one to establish a base with in most cases. Unless your name is Crocop, maybe. If you're a freak once-in-forever Ronda-esque kickboxer then that can work for you.

Cliffs: anything can work, as long as you're better than the other guy. But if you want to best exploit the weakness of someone who is already scary-good, then the quickest, most powerful way to do that is to refine your fundamentals (and by logical extension, specialize in THE art that does exactly that.)

 

[georgegreece]

What'd you get yellow for?

Posted this on somebody's wall that has too many shins.

He got offended and reported it while I didn't report his shitposts about me the last month, it's like when bullies ratted you for hitting them back in elementary school.

 

[Killashaw]

if a guy doesnt have good hands but likes to kick alot i dont even worry much about his punches waiting on that kick to counter i feel in a sport like mma kicking is the last thing needed to b developed personally

That\s a good way to get knocked out by a punch. Never underestimate your opponent.
I'd argue that kickboxing would better prepare you for MMA than boxing. Boxing footwork is shit in MMA, in kickboxing you are always on the balls of your feet and ready to either spring forward or back up.
Let's not forget that out of punching range =/= out of kicking range.

Kickboxing is better for MMA.
Wrestling is best for MMA.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

You can train under more open rulesets while still having only a few go to tech for that ruleset. An important aspect of training under more open ruleset is learn to defend the different attacks that can come at you.

Boxers have quick reactions under their own rulesets. The learn to see punches coming. How they be able to dodge or defend kicks? Or what if you can actively clinch and attack? With clinching I bet their reactions get slower.

I would say yes, and no. One of the things I've noticed in other disciplines specifically MMA is that their fighters seem "flinchy" at times. One crucial element in boxing is learning to keep your eyes open. The punch that hurts the most is the punch you don't see. That flinch reflex is for the most part trained out of practicing boxers.

Take Floyd for instance, have you ever looked at his eyes when he fights? They are generally wide like an owl. It almost looks comical. The eyes provide sensory information. Boxers learn to train their eyes, and quickly. Punches are faster than kicks, as arms are closer to your face and torso. Low kicks are a different story because you're taking the fight downstairs.

As far as training for kicks, yes, you'll have to train for those and be aware how they're coming at you. Personal example (not the standard--take it as you will), I've sparred with karate guys and MT guys. My reflexes and speed was greater than theirs. In boxing you have to transition from being relaxed to being tense in a rapid manner. This is why they're able to generate such power at close ranges (tight hooks/tight uppercuts) that knock opponents out. Their reflexes allow them to accelerate their mass rapidly over a short distance to generate sufficient power.

Now could they attack areas that I don't have regularly covered? Absolutely. However, anything aimed at my torso or head in my experience was easily dealt with through reflexes, guard changes, and pivots once I settled into the rules and understood the direction the attack was coming from. The majority of their success in kicks came from attacking low when my stance was wide. A more narrow, mobile stance was a different story. However, I work footwork more than I do actual punching because I do not enjoy being hit. I will go entire rounds just pivoting, back pedaling, shuffling and walking off. No knock to any style, just my experience and observation.

As far as clinching, that is already in the sport. Clinching is grappling so the speed difference would presumably be there from that alone. Being able to clinch in the match is dependent on the ref. Boxers actually have solid clinch work. Sparring there is no ref to keep it honest, and they can turn into high level brawls which inevitably involve clinch fighting. At the boxing gym I go to we actually go whole rounds where we just work clinching and off balancing, collar ties, over hooks, under hooks, etc.

In conclusion, I believe boxing has great transfer for reflex training.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

That\s a good way to get knocked out by a punch. Never underestimate your opponent.
I'd argue that kickboxing would better prepare you for MMA than boxing. Boxing footwork is shit in MMA, in kickboxing you are always on the balls of your feet and ready to either spring forward or back up.
Let's not forget that out of punching range =/= out of kicking range.

Kickboxing is better for MMA.
Wrestling is best for MMA.

I would disagree because I don't think boxing is represented well in MMA overall. Conor's footwork looks good and is a large part of his success. He has good distance management. His feet have to be set with the correct spacing in order to catch his opponent's the way he does. His pivots off the center line are good. His backpedal counters are good. The torque he gets on his shots are pretty good, even though he can lift that rear foot at times (still works regardless). This is all boxing footwork, which we know he has put in time at the boxing gym.

You're on the balls of your feet in boxing as well unless you choose to "walk" which Conor does. You can walk your opponent down, which he does well.

Anytime you fail it is your failure not the style's. Everything can counter everything. If you ever lose a fight it's because you did something wrong.

Wrestling is great for MMA for positional dominance, takedowns, grit, and grinding an opponent into fatigue. However, pure wrestling as we think of in MMA (scholastic) has no finishes in itself. The finish comes from what? The pin. There are outliers where you can slam a guy so hard to ko or perhaps pressure them into submission, take away their will to fight, but these are outliers. Therefore wrestling can be used as a tool to get you to the finish. Same with boxing. Same with kickboxing.

 

[Killashaw]

I would disagree because I don't think boxing is represented well in MMA overall. Conor's footwork looks good and is a large part of his success. He has good distance management. His feet have to be set with the correct spacing in order to catch his opponent's the way he does. His pivots off the center line are good. His backpedal counters are good. The torque he gets on his shots are pretty good, even though he can lift that rear foot at times (still works regardless). This is all boxing footwork, which we know he has put in time at the boxing gym.

You're on the balls of your feet in boxing as well unless you choose to "walk" which Conor does. You can walk your opponent down, which he does well.

Anytime you fail it is your failure not the style's. Everything can counter everything. If you ever lose a fight it's because you did something wrong.

Wrestling is great for MMA for positional dominance, takedowns, grit, and grinding an opponent into fatigue. However, pure wrestling as we think of in MMA (scholastic) has no finishes in itself. The finish comes from what? The pin. There are outliers where you can slam a guy so hard to ko or perhaps pressure them into submission, take away their will to fight, but these are outliers. Therefore wrestling can be used as a tool to get you to the finish. Same with boxing. Same with kickboxing.

Wrestling is the best base for MMA point blank. There is no discussion about this.
Kickboxing is better than boxing for MMA, simply because you have 4 weapons compared to 2.
Who would fare better in a gunfight, the guy with a Glock 17 as a primary weapon or the guy with dual Berettas and a pump-action shotgun?

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Wrestling is the best base for MMA point blank. There is no discussion about this.
Kickboxing is better than boxing for MMA, simply because you have 4 weapons compared to 2.
Who would fare better in a gunfight, the guy with a Glock 17 as a primary weapon or the guy with dual Berettas and a pump-action shotgun?

The guy whose bullet lands? I don't count anyone out in a gunfight but that is just me. lol

Every fighter from every discipline is dangerous. However, if there is no discussion, then you have your answer. lol

 

[thugpoet]

You can train under more open rulesets while still having only a few go to tech for that ruleset. An important aspect of training under more open ruleset is learn to defend the different attacks that can come at you.

Boxers have quick reactions under their own rulesets. The learn to see punches coming. How they be able to dodge or defend kicks? Or what if you can actively clinch and attack? With clinching I bet their reactions get slower.

Well...

Boxing as taught by a few of us on the forum and few other places teach boxing as a complete art.

For example sinister has a few flanking methods that he teaches his fighters.

I teach clinch work as a defined system. some call it "dirty boxing" naw it's just boxing.

While I agree under no rules set does boxing deal with kicks but how many kickboxers know how to deal with actual punches?

This isn't a boxing is better than kickboxing statement. this is a boxing is effective because of its exclusiveness statement.

Another example would be Greco-Roman vs Bjj. I'd favor greco in a mma fight because of a smaller technique pull. ( all things being equal )

Efficiency over variety or well rounded vs effective.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Well...

Boxing as taught by a few of us on the forum and few other places teach boxing as a complete art.

For example sinister has a few flanking methods that he teaches his fighters.

I teach clinch work as a defined system. some call it "dirty boxing" naw it's just boxing.

While I agree under no rules set does boxing deal with kicks but how many kickboxers know how to deal with actual punches?

This isn't a boxing is better than kickboxing statement. this is a boxing is effective because of its exclusiveness statement.

Another example would be Greco-Roman vs Bjj. I'd favor greco in a mma fight because of a smaller technique pull. ( all things being equal )

Efficiency over variety or well rounded vs effective.

Here is what I think:

I largely blame the campaign/rhetoric that UFC ran against boxing in an attempt to get viewers for the misconception of what boxing truly entails. The whole boxing is dead (dying) argument coming from Joe Rogan and Dana White is where it started. Many of them are so impressionable that they take on this mindset not realizing that those promoting it are simply trying to sell you their product, for profit.

I often times don't even know how to respond because I am baffled at the misunderstanding of what boxing is. The common argument is "what happens when they clinch" Do you think boxers don't know how to clinch fight? At its root boxing had standing wrestling in the curriculum. Many of those who boxed also wrestled, and vice versa. There was no division or they cross trained frequently.

They see Mayweather, the primary target of the UFC's campaign/rhetoric, and show how he reacts in the clinch or how the fighters get broken up and restart. Now, it becomes the consensus "boxers don't know how to clinch". In my gym we go entire rounds just standing clinch (no punches). The goal being to take the back or to press the opponent against the ropes utilizing pivots, over and under hooks.

Boxing isn't superior. There is no which is better. There is which is more applicable and that is based on the practitioner honestly. Whoever can apply their skillset the best will find the most success. Boxing and KB have styles within themselves that could lend better to different situations.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Well from what I have seen at the amateur level pure boxers have the hardest time translating to mma of all the combat sports.

Learning kickboxing and then working hands and headmovement later seems like a recipe for success for a lot of strikers I know

Boxing has a ton of bad habits and things that just aren’t applicable when you have to stand out of takedown and kicking range. At the amateur level you’re literally only going to be in pure boxing range for 2 seconds at most before you end up backing out into kicking range or clinching.

Unless you have an explosive blitzing style of boxing like Pacquiao to cover distance I have seen a ton of boxers in for rude awakenings.

Like it or not but distance control is one of the most crucial aspects of mma.

And in amateur mma clinch fighting is barely a thing. You need to worry about takedowns first and that is why wall-n-stall is so boring.
And while you are trying to rabbit punch me from over-under you will be eating knees to the body and legs and possibly an elbow or two.

 

[thugpoet]

Here is what I think:

I largely blame the campaign/rhetoric that UFC ran against boxing in an attempt to get viewers for the misconception of what boxing truly entails. The whole boxing is dead (dying) argument coming from Joe Rogan and Dana White is where it started. Many of them are so impressionable that they take on this mindset not realizing that those promoting it are simply trying to sell you their product, for profit.

I often times don't even know how to respond because I am baffled at the misunderstanding of what boxing is. The common argument is "what happens when they clinch" Do you think boxers don't know how to clinch fight? At its root boxing had standing wrestling in the curriculum. Many of those who boxed also wrestled, and vice versa. There was no division or they cross trained frequently.

They see Mayweather, the primary target of the UFC's campaign/rhetoric, and show how he reacts in the clinch or how the fighters get broken up and restart. Now, it becomes the consensus "boxers don't know how to clinch". In my gym we go entire rounds just standing clinch (no punches). The goal being to take the back or to press the opponent against the ropes utilizing pivots, over and under hooks.

Boxing isn't superior. There is no which is better. There is which is more applicable and that is based on the practitioner honestly. Whoever can apply their skillset the best will find the most success. Boxing and KB have styles within themselves that could lend better to different situations.

I agree

The problem with these types of questions are that it ends up being style vs style and there isn't a clear winner.

It comes down to a fighters ablity to execute a gameplan and being able to adapt when needed.

 

[Killashaw]

The guy whose bullet lands? I don't count anyone out in a gunfight but that is just me. lol

Every fighter from every discipline is dangerous. However, if there is no discussion, then you have your answer. lol

 

[tekkenfan]

h

If you are fighting a person who is more proficient with the take down you have to be more careful with kicks. Both kicks and punches have pros and cons against a takedown. Kicks can be caught, and punches can be ducked under. But low kicks can hit from further out. Further out is harder for opponent to get takedown. With punches even if ducked under, can still sprawl.

I remember there is an interview with Chael Sonnen about wrestling for MMA. He is quoted say the rhetorical question, "if I have single leg, do I have your leg, or do you have my arms?" Or something along those lines.



If you mean that boxing stance is easier to shoot from, you can do other types of throws especially from clinch using a KB stance, whatever that is. You can even do takedowns from the point karate stance.

how many guys do you see doing that when do you ever see guys use judo throws on the % of leg takedowns? you have to have done judo your whole life to be able to do that at a high level if u trained mma ud know that theres a reason leg shots are the most used and successful takedown

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Well from what I have seen at the amateur level pure boxers have the hardest time translating to mma of all the combat sports.

Learning kickboxing and then working hands later seems like a recipe for success for a lot of strikers I know

Boxing has a ton of bad habits and things that just aren’t applicable when you have to stand out of takedown and kicking range. At the amateur level you’re literally only going to be in pure boxing range for 2 seconds at most before you end up backing out into kicking range or clinching

Interesting stance. I don't believe boxing has bad habits for fighting in any arena. Some you'll use some you won't depending on the fight. Boxers don't even fight boxers all the same way, otherwise they'll get exposed for being one dimensional. Anything can be a bad habit out of context. BJJ is a bad habit if you can't get the fight to the ground.

I don't think your hands have to be at the elite level to succeed in MMA because of all the other ranges as you mentioned. I wouldn't say they have the hardest time. I've seen pure bjj guys who were reputable struggle when they found someone who wasn't going to play their game.

Ribeiro? Got smoked in punching range 22secs into the first round. His two wins came from applying RNC. Outside of his range he was toast, and he is world class in his own style.

Boxing is not as structured as people believe. There are different styles. Different methods would apply better in different situations. The speculation game is hard to play. It can go either way.

Toney lost to Couture
Mercer sparked Sylvia
Holm outboxed Ronda
….there are more examples for either way, but the takeaway is that it goes either way.

I think you should specialize and learn to defend against what you aren't great at.

Perhaps if you are pure then yes you can be taken off guard. However, if you're in MMA and have a serious training camp you're no longer pure in anything. Fighting is about making adjustments to what is presented. If you remain pure you're probability of failure is higher.

I agree that supplementing with boxing will be beneficial if you have a base, especially in kickboxing.