What’s your measurement for “no longer intelligently defending”. Is it an elapsed time wi no strikes thrown back, or foot movement while absorbing blows? Is there a physical tell? I’d it a number of strikes absorbed? Are you waiting for one big “wow” moment? Curious on how you measure that.
If there were a sheet with a list of identifiable things and all refs had to do was consult the list and tally up the criteria then we wouldn't have arguments about this. The reason that refs are there is because judgment calls have to be made, and they have to be made on a case-by-case basis. In the case of Holloway/Kattar, as I have already said, this question should not even arise as Kattar was constantly moving and constantly firing back. He was never out of the fight.
Since you asked, though, for me personally the one out-and-out "tell" or "indicator" for a fighter no longer intelligently defending himself/herself is turtling up. Standing still for an extended period of time (which is of course subjective, hence the need for refs making judgment calls) absorbing a lot of big shots (which is also subjective, hence the need for refs making judgment calls), especially when you are out on your feet, or lying on the ground motionless for an extended period of time absorbing a lot of big shots, especially if you are visibly/audibly in pain, is an indication for the ref step in. For examples - and specifically examples featuring Herb Dean - I'd go to Nunes/Rousey for a good stoppage on the feet and GSP/Sherk for a good stoppage on the ground. Rousey had literally nothing to offer Nunes. She was out on her feet and she was literally only still standing because she was clinging to the fence. There was no need to let Nunes actually turn her lights out. It was game over. Sherk, meanwhile, was getting obliterated, to the point where GSP not only destroyed his nose but Sherk was letting out audible cries of pain while taking massive elbows. There was no need to let Sherk get beaten until he himself verbally or physically submitted or got his lights turned out. It was game over.
While admittedly Kattar was active through out the night there were moments where he was not.
But you can't pretend that the moments when he was active didn't exist. It's because there were moments of activity that the fight wasn't stopped. If he'd turtled up and had stopped actively fighting Holloway off, Dean would've stepped in. But he didn't, so he didn't. I'm not being glib here: It really is that simple.
Ok, I can agree with that. I see it as “dated” and you see it as “soft”. We’re not going to agree there. I watch this as a sport, and not as a contest of manliness or damage.
This is definitely an "agree to disagree" point. However, just to clarify, I watch MMA as a sport
which is among other things a contest of manliness and damage. That is, I consider toughness and guts (or heart or balls or however you want to describe it) integral to the sport - integral to the athletes who compete in it and integral to the competition that I watch and enjoy as a viewer. Removing that element would amount to neutering the sport - or, for an alternative analogy, it would amount to removing the soul from the sport.
Seriously,
Zebra Cheeks, do you get
nothing out of watching Nogueira snatch victory from the jaws of defeat (as Bas memorably put it, "He will come back from the dead and submit you")? Do you get
nothing out of watching Funaki refuse to stay down despite the punishing beating administered by Bas? Do you get nothing out of watching Don Frye flatten Ken Shamrock and bust his face open on the ground, only for Shamrock to survive, reverse Frye, and put him in a gruesome heel hook, only for Frye to put Shamrock in
his own heel hook? Hell, do you get
nothing out of watching Forrest Griffin and Stephan Bonnar give every last ounce of their balls, hearts, and souls?
For me, those experiences are what separates MMA from literally every other sport. Yes, it's thrilling watching Michael Jordan shoot the big shot with the game on the line with no time left on the clock. Yes, it's thrilling watching someone at the plate in the bottom of the ninth with two outs and a runner on third. But not even the most exciting thing in the history of sports can compare to watching two people step into a cage with nothing but their minds and their bodies who are willing to literally walk through Hell to get their hand raised.
The day that MMA loses this element is the day that it loses me as a fan.
Do you feel Kattar had a legitimate chance of winning after round 3, and to what extent? 25% chance? 10%? What are we talking about here? 5%? For me it was probably under a 10% chance of winning by the time round 4 started. I don’t see an issue with being more liberal with stopping fights when guys are in spots as bad as the spots Kattar ended up in through out the night.
Simply put, I think that Kattar had as much of a chance to win as Nog did against Tim, as Fedor did against Fujita, as Edgar did against Maynard. Fights don't - and should never - get stopped because it seems unlikely that a fighter will be able to pull out a win. That'd be utterly absurd. You play all four quarters in basketball because who the hell knows what's going to happen in the last two minutes? You play all three periods of hockey because who knows what's going to happen during that last-minute power play with the goalie pulled? And you fight from bell to bell because who knows what's going to happen in that last round?
I do think there’s a much stronger argument that the fight should have been stopped by someone, ref, corner, I don’t care.
You may not care, but you should. It's a big difference saying that the ref should've stopped it versus the corner. If you want there to be a large-scale reconceptualization of what it means to be in someone's corner, of what it means to have your fighter's best interest at heart, etc., fair enough. But that's a far cry from encouraging refs to just stop a fight whenever they feel that it's unlikely that a fighter will be able to win. That's insanity IMO.
And I wouldn’t rip on Kattar or his former for stopping this, I’d applaud it.
I wouldn't rip on him/them
or applaud him/them. If a fighter says enough's enough, or if a corner says they've seen enough, that's their call. I have absolutely nothing to say on the subject. If a fighter and/or their teammates/coaches/family/what have you decides to call it a day, that's literally their call. But short of that, I don't want anyone else sticking their nose in unless
absolutely necessary, as in the case of a fighter no longer intelligently defending himself/herself, in which case fighters should still be given the benefit of the doubt and should be allowed every opportunity to fight through whatever adversity they may face in a given fight.
