Herb Dean Failed His Job Tonight

[Ares Black]

He was hurt, but he was still defending himself, still following ref's instructions and fighting back... and he's totally fine

People are being overly sensitive about this fight for some reason and it's bizarre

I don't think people are being overly sensitive. It was one of the most lopsided beatdowns of all time, and it could have been stopped with little controversy a bunch of times

 

[Matt Conley]

I don't think people are being overly sensitive. It was one of the most lopsided beatdowns of all time, and it could have been stopped with little controversy a bunch of times

Yes it could have been stopped by his corner in my opinion. Not the ref. I also find it funny that people are going on and on about kattars health and brain and longevity etc like they're experts and actually train/coach the dude. You would think his corner would be a much better judge of how well hes doing and his chances of winning then sherdoggers. So yes, I do think people are being overly sensitive.

 

[daniel san]

Yes it could have been stopped by his corner in my opinion. Not the ref. I also find it funny that people are going on and on about kattars health and brain and longevity etc like they're experts and actually train/coach the dude. You would think his corner would be a much better judge of how well hes doing and his chances of winning then sherdoggers. So yes, I do think people are being overly sensitive.

Clearly his team are delusional or pricks because nothing indicated that Kattar would win after the first rounds. You don’t have to be a doctor to understand that taking that punishment is really, really bad for your health and brain. MMA and sports in general isn’t really stacked with intelligent sensible people but the ref should definitely think of not only immediate fighter safety but also long term. Not everyone is like BJ where he may say he will fight to the death but when he realises he is literally just taking unnecessary punishment he forfeits.

 

[Matt Conley]

Clearly his team are delusional or pricks because nothing indicated that Kattar would win after the first rounds. You don’t have to be a doctor to understand that taking that punishment is really, really bad for your health and brain. MMA and sports in general isn’t really stacked with intelligent sensible people but the ref should definitely think of not only immediate fighter safety but also long term. Not everyone is like BJ where he may say he will fight to the death but when he realises he is literally just taking unnecessary punishment he forfeits.

Ah yes, the classic "no indications he would win" story....by that logic let's just use betting lines to decide who wins fights. Hey man, it's about health and safety!!! Can't possibly be about the individual determining what's an acceptable risk and what isn't. My bad, guess you know better than his coaches and himself right.

Alcohol and cigarettes are also really really really bad for your health....let's put a limit on those as well and let's let this limit be determined by you! That's honestly how insane I think people are being over this. I don't usually post a lot but I really feel the need to on this subject because I've seen what happens in sports when the minority starts speaking up and wanting rule changes etc and once the rules go into play its extremely hard to back out of it.

You also have late starters...look at Nate Diaz, he gets his ass beat bad sometimes...take him vs conor 2, he was knocked down three times or something in the first round, guess we should have stopped the fight there right? Unnecessary damage and all

 

[Islam Imamate]

I think people are exaggerating this and it would've robbed us of one the greatest MMA moments of the past couple years if the fight was stopped earlier . Kattar didn't get dropped too much the latter part of the fight and was fighting back Everytime he got to the brink and never churned his back, he wasn't taking the damage and losing control the way Ferguson or Smith did for instance. If the fight should've been stopped that's on his corner but Kattar was giving all the signs to herb for him to not stop the fight imo .

Lol stop it, Kattar was obviously fine to continue hence him finishing the fight.


This is MMA, some of you have forgotten that.

I'm with these two, I think Kattar was intelligently defending himself and throwing back enough to justify the fight continuing.

The corner maybe should've stopped it but the way I see it a ref deciding to stop the fight and the corner doing so are two different things. The ref stops it when one fighter is not intelligently defending themselves but a corner might see a fighter who is doing that but only just that and has little chance of winning and a high chance of sustaining a beatdown instead. In that case maybe the corner should step in like how Duke Roofus did for Pettis when he broke his hand against Ferguson. But its more of a subjective determination.

That said the Just Bleed fan in me is happy it went five rounds, holy crap what a hellacious beating that was. It was fun to see Max just get into the zone and style all over Kattar who, to his credit, was still keeping Holloway honest every now and again. Crazy fight, legendary performance by Max.

 

[AaandStill]

 

[AaandStill]

 

[HollaBack]

no no no we always complain when it stopped too early, we have seen crazy come backs, he hung in there till the end, hes a fighter end of discussion

 

[genecop]

Ah yes, the classic "no indications he would win" story....by that logic let's just use betting lines to decide who wins fights. Hey man, it's about health and safety!!! Can't possibly be about the individual determining what's an acceptable risk and what isn't. My bad, guess you know better than his coaches and himself right.

Alcohol and cigarettes are also really really really bad for your health....let's put a limit on those as well and let's let this limit be determined by you! That's honestly how insane I think people are being over this. I don't usually post a lot but I really feel the need to on this subject because I've seen what happens in sports when the minority starts speaking up and wanting rule changes etc and once the rules go into play its extremely hard to back out of it.

You also have late starters...look at Nate Diaz, he gets his ass beat bad sometimes...take him vs conor 2, he was knocked down three times or something in the first round, guess we should have stopped the fight there right? Unnecessary damage and all

I bet these are the same guys telling everyone to wear a mask, some people like getting into the business of others..It’s hysterical how they know more that Herb and the guys corner...

 

[Mr.Maelstrom]

@Zebra Cheeks
This has been the most compelling thread in the heavies in recent memory, kudos sir.

There's been a ton of great points made on both sides, people are actually explaining their position.

Hell, I think we've even come to an agreeable consensus that the corner probably deserves the criticism. And it's cool to see how many here are decent and compassionate regarding a fighter's well-being post career.

@DoctorTaco Multiple great posts, pretty much word for word. I'm not at the level of involvement that you are, but I have cornered a few times, you're spot on and your fighters are very fortunate to have you in that role.

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

@Zebra Cheeks
This has been the most compelling thread in the heavies in recent memory, kudos sir.

There's been a ton of great points made on both sides, people are actually explaining their position.

Hell, I think we've even come to an agreeable consensus that the corner probably deserves the criticism. And it's cool to see how many here are decent and compassionate regarding a fighter's well-being post career.

@DoctorTaco Multiple great posts, pretty much word for word. I'm not at the level of involvement that you are, but I have cornered a few times, you're spot on and your fighters are very fortunate to have you in that role.

Thank you my friend. It turned out to be quite an intense thread, but there are a ton on meaningful conversations happening, and that’s ultimately why we post, right?

 

[Mr.Maelstrom]

Thank you my friend. It turned out to be quite an intense thread, but there are a ton on meaningful conversations happening, and that’s ultimately why we post, right?

Absolutely

 

[MichaelT]

Came here to make this thread. Kattar is a good fighter, very durable and won't ever quit. Well done Herb, taking off years of his prime and his life probably.

Listen to yourself, anyone who signs up to fight is responsible for their health and brain, injuries and damage are inevitable. How childish to blame the ref for a fighter getting beat up.

I'm sure Herb doesn't enjoy watching these beatings, but it's not for him to stop fights out of pity, when both fighters are very clearly fighting and defending themselves.

I get that you were put off by it and it shows empathy which is a good thing, but it's really ugly saying herb is now personally responsible for Kattar's health.
By that logic they should stop heavyweight fights after 50 punches are landed, for their own safety

 

[TheLexusMan]

I disagree, these are two of the top professionals in the featherweight division and alot of times fights are stopped way too soon. Also the fact that the big lights were on, ABC primetime television probably had alot to do with why the fight was not stopped.

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

Listen to yourself, anyone who signs up to fight is responsible for their health and brain, injuries and damage are inevitable. How childish to blame the ref for a fighter getting beat up.

I'm sure Herb doesn't enjoy watching these beatings, but it's not for him to stop fights out of pity, when both fighters are very clearly fighting and defending themselves.

I get that you were put off by it and it shows empathy which is a good thing, but it's really ugly saying herb is now personally responsible for Kattar's health.
By that logic they should stop heavyweight fights after 50 punches are landed, for their own safety

This is the logic I’m against. “You think this fight should be stopped so this sports not for you and you’re saying we should stop ALL fights.” No ones saying that. We’re saying this was an extreme circumstance and a stoppage was warranted.

Thst doesn’t mean anyone feels that way about every single fight where someone’s hurt.

 

[Kyojiro Kagenuma]

I think that’s a very dated mentality. This was an extreme fight, that produced extrodinary circumstances. Normally, I’m on your side. I agree that in most cases fans tend to over react. I don’t think this is one. The majority of fans on this site felt the towel should have been thrown in, and about 1/3 felt the ref mishandled the fight and should have called it. It has nothing to do with testicular fortitude or the “pussification” of sports.

This is a blood sport, and people get seriously hurt. I accept that. What I don’t accept is a fighter whos leaned up against a fence unable to support their own weight getting slapped repeatedly over and over with heavy shots. What I don’t support is recklessness. This was reckless.

I find it ironic how hyper pseudo masculine some fans are in a sport where women have been able to garner more success and fame than almost any other sport. The whole "This is a man's sport!"

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

If there were a sheet with a list of identifiable things and all refs had to do was consult the list and tally up the criteria then we wouldn't have arguments about this. The reason that refs are there is because judgment calls have to be made, and they have to be made on a case-by-case basis. In the case of Holloway/Kattar, as I have already said, this question should not even arise as Kattar was constantly moving and constantly firing back. He was never out of the fight.

Since you asked, though, for me personally the one out-and-out "tell" or "indicator" for a fighter no longer intelligently defending himself/herself is turtling up. Standing still for an extended period of time (which is of course subjective, hence the need for refs making judgment calls) absorbing a lot of big shots (which is also subjective, hence the need for refs making judgment calls), especially when you are out on your feet, or lying on the ground motionless for an extended period of time absorbing a lot of big shots, especially if you are visibly/audibly in pain, is an indication for the ref step in. For examples - and specifically examples featuring Herb Dean - I'd go to Nunes/Rousey for a good stoppage on the feet and GSP/Sherk for a good stoppage on the ground. Rousey had literally nothing to offer Nunes. She was out on her feet and she was literally only still standing because she was clinging to the fence. There was no need to let Nunes actually turn her lights out. It was game over. Sherk, meanwhile, was getting obliterated, to the point where GSP not only destroyed his nose but Sherk was letting out audible cries of pain while taking massive elbows. There was no need to let Sherk get beaten until he himself verbally or physically submitted or got his lights turned out. It was game over.

I think this is about as far as our disagreement goes. I’m not trying to stop the wars or the classics. I saw this as a fight where Kattar hit my threshold for “done”. I felt what he was doing at times wasn’t enough to let the fight continue. Let me clarify on my statement about the 450 sig strikes. My issue isn’t that there were 450 sig strikes. My issue is that I felt the fight should have been stopped at two key moments in the fight, it wasn’t, and the resulting additional damage was massive. If two guys threw 1000 sig strikes combined in the greatest blood bath in mma history, I’d have no issue. It’s not the number in itself as it is the fact that my definition of “intelligently defending” was not met, and I viewed everything after as a guy who by my own definition had been finished taking unnecessary damage. There were moments where I felt he was turtling, and was not firing back enough to warrant a continuation.

This is definitely an "agree to disagree" point. However, just to clarify, I watch MMA as a sport which is among other things a contest of manliness and damage. That is, I consider toughness and guts (or heart or balls or however you want to describe it) integral to the sport - integral to the athletes who compete in it and integral to the competition that I watch and enjoy as a viewer. Removing that element would amount to neutering the sport - or, for an alternative analogy, it would amount to removing the soul from the sport.

Seriously, Zebra Cheeks, do you get nothing out of watching Nogueira snatch victory from the jaws of defeat (as Bas memorably put it, "He will come back from the dead and submit you")? Do you get nothing out of watching Funaki refuse to stay down despite the punishing beating administered by Bas? Do you get nothing out of watching Don Frye flatten Ken Shamrock and bust his face open on the ground, only for Shamrock to survive, reverse Frye, and put him in a gruesome heel hook, only for Frye to put Shamrock in his own heel hook? Hell, do you get nothing out of watching Forrest Griffin and Stephan Bonnar give every last ounce of their balls, hearts, and souls?

I cherish those moments as much as the next guy. But Nog was the reason I got into mma on the level that I did. TUF got me curious, Silva had me shocked and intrigued, big nog made me fall in love with the sport. The difference between some of Nogs fights and this one, is that I felt nog was always making moves and setting things up. While he was taking damage he was most dangerous. And you could see that in his actions in the fight. It was a comprehensible game plan and while at times it made me uncomfortable, it made the victory even more sweet. I’m not trying to encourage people to ruin that. And I’m not trying to take away classics like Forrest vs Bonnar and put a black mark on them because I enjoyed those fights and didn’t feel they should be stopped. I did however feel this one should have been.

For me, those experiences are what separates MMA from literally every other sport. Yes, it's thrilling watching Michael Jordan shoot the big shot with the game on the line with no time left on the clock. Yes, it's thrilling watching someone at the plate in the bottom of the ninth with two outs and a runner on third. But not even the most exciting thing in the history of sports can compare to watching two people step into a cage with nothing but their minds and their bodies who are willing to literally walk through Hell to get their hand raised.

The day that MMA loses this element is the day that it loses me as a fan.



Simply put, I think that Kattar had as much of a chance to win as Nog did against Tim, as Fedor did against Fujita, as Edgar did against Maynard. Fights don't - and should never - get stopped because it seems unlikely that a fighter will be able to pull out a win. That'd be utterly absurd. You play all four quarters in basketball because who the hell knows what's going to happen in the last two minutes? You play all three periods of hockey because who knows what's going to happen during that last-minute power play with the goalie pulled? And you fight from bell to bell because who knows what's going to happen in that last round?

this was not a tie game in the bottom of the ninth with two outs, bases loaded and a full count. This wasn’t a hockey game with a 1 goal differential and a pulled goalie. Using those scenarios is a vast misrepresentation of what we watched. If this was baseball years ago, the 20 run mercy rule would have applied. Fans would have turned off the tv. We all would have stopped watching. - and to that I end, I agree with you because the amazing thing about mma is that anyone can snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. That’s part of the glory of it, and I agree, we don’t want that to go away. I don’t think a stoppage in this fight would have taken that away from us. The examples you’re using of mma stoppages are incredibly clear stoppages where there’s 0 debate, but that’s not every stoppage. Not every fight has a man audibly crying for help as his face gets pounded into the canvas. Our sport isn’t always that straight forward. Sometimes we have overeem - Rozenstruik moments where the sequences and events are much less comprehensible and black/white. This IMO was a situation where it was more like the later. It wasn’t clear and it was murky. To that end, I can admit I may have been excessive in my criticism of Dean. Because this wasn’t an easy fight to call which ever way it would have gone. I think if he called the fight, you’d likely see a good amount of people calling “bad stoppage” and I think the reverse is true here as well where many fans are saying “he should have stopped it”. I think you and I disagree on a lot here, but I do think we can both admit that either way this wasn’t “clear as day” because it wasn’t.

You may not care, but you should. It's a big difference saying that the ref should've stopped it versus the corner. If you want there to be a large-scale reconceptualization of what it means to be in someone's corner, of what it means to have your fighter's best interest at heart, etc., fair enough. But that's a far cry from encouraging refs to just stop a fight whenever they feel that it's unlikely that a fighter will be able to win. That's insanity IMO.



I wouldn't rip on him/them or applaud him/them. If a fighter says enough's enough, or if a corner says they've seen enough, that's their call. I have absolutely nothing to say on the subject. If a fighter and/or their teammates/coaches/family/what have you decides to call it a day, that's literally their call. But short of that, I don't want anyone else sticking their nose in unless absolutely necessary, as in the case of a fighter no longer intelligently defending himself/herself, in which case fighters should still be given the benefit of the doubt and should be allowed every opportunity to fight through whatever adversity they may face in a given fight.

Again I’m not asking him to stop it based on accumulation. I felt Kattar wasn’t intelligently defending himself at one point in round 3, and one point in round 4. We’ve seen fights stopped for far less.

 

[MichaelT]

This is the logic I’m against. “You think this fight should be stopped so this sports not for you and you’re saying we should stop ALL fights.” No ones saying that. We’re saying this was an extreme circumstance and a stoppage was warranted.

Thst doesn’t mean anyone feels that way about every single fight where someone’s hurt.

When did I say any of that? You are taking what I said and dramatising it, because you don't agree with it.

I made an example, that if you think a guy who is fighting back and defending should be stopped, because he's taking too many punches, then by that same logic a fight with heavyweights like Ngannou should be stopped early by default, because of the damage they deal.

I didn't say 'stop all fights and don't watch the sport'. I also don't have a problem with stopping fights, I thought Tony Vs Gaethje was an excellent call.

This fight wasn't like that, and the ref had no obligation to do anything. You can disagree, but you're wrong it's that simple, some fights are ugly and uncomfortable to watch, doesn't mean they should be stopped and the ref attacked when he didn't do anything wrong

 

[imbossing]

He has fuked up soooo many fights

I think most that voted are new to mma

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

When did I say any of that? You are taking what I said and dramatising it, because you don't agree with it.

I made an example, that if you think a guy who is fighting back and defending should be stopped, because he's taking too many punches, then by that same logic a fight with heavyweights like Ngannou should be stopped early by default, because of the damage they deal.

I didn't say 'stop all fights and don't watch the sport'. I also don't have a problem with stopping fights, I thought Tony Vs Gaethje was an excellent call.

This fight wasn't like that, and the ref had no obligation to do anything. You can disagree, but you're wrong it's that simple, some fights are ugly and uncomfortable to watch, doesn't mean they should be stopped and the ref attacked when he didn't do anything wrong

You said if we feel this way about this fights than any heavyweight fight with 50 sig strikes should be stopped. Is that not the exact same thing?

It has nothing to do with it being ugly and uncomfortable, and it has everything to do with the fight having moments that would have qualified a stoppage based on the criteria executed and established in this sport.