Russia/Ukraine Megathread V5

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Here I'll do the sourcing

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1577012/putin-demands-russia-ukraine-military-action-evg

March 7th

However, in the most explicit statement yet, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told Reuters that Russia would cease its military action in Ukraine if four conditions were met.

The conditions include:

  • Ceasing all military action
  • A change to the constitution to enshrine neutrality
  • Acknowledgement of Crimea as Russian territory
  • Recognition of Luhansk and Donetsk as independent
March 15

For its part, Russia has been clear in stating what it wants from talks with Ukraine:

It wants legal guarantees that Ukraine will never be allowed to NATO, the Western military alliance, and has since said that it wants Ukraine to sign a neutrality agreement and to change its constitution to cement this.

Moscow has demanded that Ukraine recognize the independence of two separatist, pro-Russian republics in eastern Ukraine, the so-called Peoples Republics of Donetsk and Lugansk. It has also demanded that Ukraine recognizes Crimea, which it annexed in 2014, as Russian territory. And it has called on Ukraine to cease all military activity.

Kremlin Spokesman Dmitry Peskov said last week that the war will stop "in a moment" if Ukraine agrees to these demands.


Same requests.


They didn't make the demand of taking over the country. What I've suspected since the beginning was invading the entire country was to make giving up the Donbas region and signing neutrality a "win" for Ukraine saving the capital and the rest of their country while giving Russia what they initially wanted. It's been way sloppier than they planned though.

This is exactly my viewpoint
 
To people surprised at the losses of the Russians vs US in other countries: yeah no shit, they are not attacking goat herders with a coalition of 20 developped countries, they're attacking a country that's been trained by NATO, expecting an attack, is being fed weapons by NATO and receives intelligence by NATO.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing that NATO helps Ukraine; I'm just saying that this war is not like attacking Talibans. Hopefully Putin stops, but I think he'll double down and this will end badly for everyone.
 
Maybe. But plenty of intelligence analysts predicted that Russia would invade and launch a full scale attack on Kyiv as part of a bid to install a new regime, while isolating Ukrainian forces in Donetsk and Luhansk because that is where the Ukrainians were best armed and most experienced.

I see your narrative, but I think it started out as the other way round; Kyiv was the real focus, putting in a puppet government, while the strongest of the Ukrainian military was kept occupied.

It wasn't realistic to simply launch an all out attack on Kyiv.
Meh, could be, and likely would have been the eventual goal, but that would have been a slower process of gradually taking a little more and little more over time. What they had set up for the initial invasion wasn't enough to just take the country.

I'm not going to pretend I'm some Vladimir Putin psychology expert, but he does seem like the "you gotta break some eggs to make an omelette" sort, and creating the conflict that costs some lives to get a quick resolution really wasn't that wild of a plan. He priced in some sanctions, and Donbas has been kind of a headache for Ukraine for a while. It's mostly miners and some goofballs trying to set up autonomous zones.

The biggest problem for Putin, like any dictator, and even our own politicians to a lesser extent, is that he's been too far removed from normal citizens and thinking broader strategy for decades. My wife has an uncle that lives in Donetsk, and if you'd have asked him a month ago, I don't think he'd have any preference whether the place was Russian or Ukrainian, but since it's a military invasion, obviously he's against the Russians now.

The big problem for Ukraine in this is not really giving up Donbas because of Donbas, it's that it gives Russia better land to invade from in the future.
 
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Here I'll do the sourcing

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1577012/putin-demands-russia-ukraine-military-action-evg

March 7th

However, in the most explicit statement yet, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told Reuters that Russia would cease its military action in Ukraine if four conditions were met.

The conditions include:

  • Ceasing all military action
  • A change to the constitution to enshrine neutrality
  • Acknowledgement of Crimea as Russian territory
  • Recognition of Luhansk and Donetsk as independent
March 15

For its part, Russia has been clear in stating what it wants from talks with Ukraine:

It wants legal guarantees that Ukraine will never be allowed to NATO, the Western military alliance, and has since said that it wants Ukraine to sign a neutrality agreement and to change its constitution to cement this.

Moscow has demanded that Ukraine recognize the independence of two separatist, pro-Russian republics in eastern Ukraine, the so-called Peoples Republics of Donetsk and Lugansk. It has also demanded that Ukraine recognizes Crimea, which it annexed in 2014, as Russian territory. And it has called on Ukraine to cease all military activity.

Kremlin Spokesman Dmitry Peskov said last week that the war will stop "in a moment" if Ukraine agrees to these demands.


Same requests.

"Same requests"?

Putin directly referenced the current Ukraine regime as 'neo-Nazis', so he obviously includes them in the 'denazification' process.

He directly called for the Ukrainian military to "take power into [their] own hands".

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/russia-ukraine-vladimir-putin-zelensky-b2023574.html

https://www.politico.eu/article/put...ary-to-overthrow-government-agree-peace-deal/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...izarre-speech-wrecks-his-once-pragmatic-image

This was February 25.

He's stopped saying that, he's reduced his demands entirely.

 
Far rightist Azov troops’ mobilization of potent Nazi symbols muddies the waters of Western support for the Ukrainian resistance
https://asiatimes.com/2022/03/zelensky-isnt-a-nazi-but-some-of-his-soldiers-are/

One of Russia's reasons for invading Ukraine is to remove the Neo-Nazis. Some people scoff, but this article from a mainstream, international, website explains the situation well. Ukraine was a WWII battlefield, and it was torn between the two sides. Ukraine had partisans who fought for the Nazis. Some of these people are considered heroes by many in the country.

...when it comes to Russo-Ukraine relations, references to neo-Nazism are not entirely without basis. They harken back, past the post-2014 Russo-Ukraine conflict, to the bloodiest front in the world’s bloodiest war.

To its grave misfortune, Ukraine bestrides a blood-red meridian. Its vast flatlands provide a perfect east-west invasion corridor, and its rich black soil is coveted by neighbors. In the 1930s and 1940s, two of the world’s most murderous regimes – Stalin’s Communist USSR and Hitler’s Nazi Germany – conducted war and genocide over the country.

After the fall of the USSR, many Ukrainians with fascist tendencies, who were suppressed, began to become influential again.

These complicated and bloody histories, intertwining extreme ideologies with violent nationalism, are little known in the West. Related animosities were effectively suppressed during the Soviet era, but were fanned back to ferocious heat after the implosion of the USSR and the rise of new states around the perimeter of the Czarist/Soviet empire.

Hard rightism returned. In Ukraine, some groups and politicians sought to rehabilitate Stepan Bandera, a hardcore Ukrainian nationalist who cooperated with the Nazis, and whose militia massacred tens of thousands of Poles and Jews in a particularly savage manner.

And as combat spread across Ukraine’s Donbas, rightist militias emerged. Some were neo-Nazi in orientation and drew white supremacist volunteers, often of dubious backgrounds, from across the world. The highest-profile among these was Azov – described as an “extreme rightist nationalist paramilitary” by Stanford University.

The unit is no longer a militia. It has been incorporated into Ukraine’s official armed forces. Western observers of the ongoing war may have mixed feelings about Azov’s presence in the frontline – is it, or the invader, the “lesser of two evils?”

For Russia, Azov has resurrected the furies of the 1940s by associating itself with the most notorious organization of Adolf Hitler’s Third Reich.

This eventually led to the rise of Neo-Nazis, and entities like the Azov Battalion. This was formerly a militia, but has now been incorporated into the regular army.

Subsequently, predominantly Russian Crimea was annexed by Moscow. But the Donbas conflict, fueled by ethnic nationalism on both sides, rumbled on. It lured volunteers from across Ukraine, the Russian Federation and further afield. Militias on both sides coalesced around charismatic leaders.

One was Andriy Biletsky, a hardcore Ukrainian nationalist who had been imprisoned for political violence in 2011. He founded Azov and then the far-right political party, the National Corps. Representing that group, he entered mainstream politics and occupied a seat in Ukraine’s parliament from 2015 to 2019.

Though Michael Colborne, the author of a 2022 book on Azov, notes unproven allegations that Azov has connections to Kremlin spy agencies – which would suggest an incredibly shadowy “black flag” operation – there is no doubt that Azov played a key role fighting to eject Russian separatists from Mariupol in 2014. It then battled them, for years, in Donbas.

At a time when Kiev’s regular military was weak, the unit, and other militias, won funding from Ukrainian oligarchs. In November 2014, Azov was officially incorporated into the Ukrainian National Guard as a “special purpose regiment.”

Old, Nazi symbols are recycled by the Azov Battalion to represent their fascist ideology. The leaders of this movement were tied to the original Nazi partisans from WWII. There is a definite link that reasonable people cannot deny.

Symbology of genocide
Azov’s logo, seen on uniform patches and banners, is an ancient Germanic symbol, the wolfsangel – a design based on metal wolf traps. Historically, the wolfsangel featured both on coats of arms and on banners of peasant rebels and guerilla resistors but gained notoriety in World War II as a symbol of multiple German units.

Granted, the wolfsangel predated the Third Reich, and some members say they are not neo-Nazis, but followers of ancient European, Nordic and pagan traditions.

Yet Azov’s deployment of Nazi symbology does not stop there. Unit members have been photographed sporting tattoos and helmet patches featuring swastikas – the Nazi Party symbol – and SS runes on their uniforms.

And in the Third Reich, the wolfsangel was married to SS runes when it was adopted as the unit symbol of the 2nd SS Panzer Division “Das Reich.”

2019-08-24_Kyiv_March_Polk_Azov-Wikimedia-Commons.jpg

Avoz-Das-Reich-e1647488001756.jpg


While no commentators outside Russia would paint the majority of Ukraine’s current-generation defenders in neo-Nazi colors, Avoz has operated with apparent impunity.

And it is about far more than symbology and revivalist nationalism. Many soldiers profess far-right, white-supremacist sentiments. In 2015, a spokesperson for the regiment admitted that 10% to 20% of Azov’s recruits were neo-Nazis.

According to a 2021 investigative report by Time news magazine, Azov spawned a political party, two publishing houses, summer camps for children and a vigilante force known as the National Militia. Nationalist vigilantes in Ukraine have, in recent years, attacked two targets of both old- and new-school Nazis: Roma and LGBTQs.

The article covers more ground than I could put here, so if you are really interested, I suggest reading the whole article. Discuss.
 
"Same requests"?

Putin directly referenced the current Ukraine regime as 'neo-Nazis', so he obviously includes them in the 'denazification' process.

He directly called for the Ukrainian military to "take power into [their] own hands".

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/russia-ukraine-vladimir-putin-zelensky-b2023574.html

https://www.politico.eu/article/put...ary-to-overthrow-government-agree-peace-deal/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...izarre-speech-wrecks-his-once-pragmatic-image

This was February 25.

He's stopped saying that, he's reduced his demands entirely.



Your first link.

Vladimir Putin has urged the Ukrainian military to "take power into its own hands" and overthrow president Volodymyr Zelensky.

In an apparent reference to Ukraine's leadership, the Russian president told troops it will be "easier to negotiate with you" than the "gang of Nazis that has captured Kyiv".

"I once again appeal to the military personnel of the armed forces of Ukraine: do not allow neo-Nazis to use your children, wives and elders as human shields," Mr Putin said.

"Take power into your own hands, it will be easier for us to reach an agreemen
t

That's not a demand is it.. despite the headline. that's hopeful propaganda by putin lol..


Looking dead-eyed into the camera on Friday, Vladimir Putin gave one of the most bizarre speeches of his 22 years as Russia’s leader, a directive that managed to sound alarming even in a week when he has ordered tanks into Ukraine and missile strikes on Kyiv.

“Once again I speak to the Ukrainian soldiers,” he said, addressing his enemy. “Do not allow neo-Nazis and Banderites to use your children, your wives and the elderly as a human shield. Take power into your own hands. It seems that it will be easier for us to come to an agreement than with this gang of drug addicts and neo-Nazis.”



None of these articles claim what you think they say... none of them say that the overthrow of Kiev is the goal....

Has his rhetoric changed? Yes.. but not his stated goals at the beginning, middle and current goals with what he's put on the table in his negotiation deals.... they're pretty much identical
 
To people surprised at the losses of the Russians vs US in other countries: yeah no shit, they are not attacking goat herders with a coalition of 20 developped countries, they're attacking a country that's been trained by NATO, expecting an attack, is being fed weapons by NATO and receives intelligence by NATO.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing that NATO helps Ukraine; I'm just saying that this war is not like attacking Talibans. Hopefully Putin stops, but I think he'll double down and this will end badly for everyone.

Sure, but you forgot to mention that the US was in Iraq and Afghanistan for 20 years while Russia has been there for 20 days. 7,300 days vs 20 days. If the numbers are accurate, it's still a crazy stat.
 
And mechanized infantry is really important because tanks can move more quickly then infantry on foot.
That is all dependent on the terrain. Tanks can't move through jungle (Vietnam) or deep water. They are vulnerable from above, as seen on the video. They need ground and air security. When a tank fires a round, the blast 'cone' can kill soldiers who are in front of it for 100+ yards. Friendly Infantry should never be directly in front of a tank when it fires. Tanks are more easily incapacitated when they 'blow' a track. Once the left or right track is gone, the tank can't move. Mines are ideal for this purpose. The Ukrainians have blown bridges to Kiev, but they should have also mined the main roads.
 
To people surprised at the losses of the Russians vs US in other countries: yeah no shit, they are not attacking goat herders with a coalition of 20 developped countries, they're attacking a country that's been trained by NATO, expecting an attack, is being fed weapons by NATO and receives intelligence by NATO.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing that NATO helps Ukraine; I'm just saying that this war is not like attacking Talibans. Hopefully Putin stops, but I think he'll double down and this will end badly for everyone.
I’m comparing this war to the gulf war in the 90s. The Russian military should of had complete dominance in the air like we did with Iraq in the 90s. They don’t have air dominance, which is what giving them a lot of problems. A lot of Russians are deserting due to low moral and poor logistics and communications. They don’t even have MREs. And a lot of them are poorly trained. Iraq had the most biggest and most powerful military in the world during the 90s and we destroyed them. Russia is losing because they suck at conventional warfare. If they are already losing the conventional war, then imagine how bad they would lose during the insurgency if they succeed in the invasion. Dealing with the insurgency in Iraq after the 2003 Iraq invasion was not easy either. A lot of suicidal bombers, IED bombs, but the Americans keep casualties to a minimum. They are just better at war than the Russians.
 
@Siver!
Actually considering he states it will be easier to negotiate with you ( the soldiers ) than the neo-Nazis currently in power leads me to believe he's planned to negotiate the entire time and not take Kiev.......
 
Our media has been very quiet about the Neo Nazi faction in Ukraine. It is a very dumb argument to say there is no issue with Neo Nazis because Zelensky is Jewish, as if Ukrainians can not have several factions all unite to oppose Russia.

At the same time, the Russian justification of eradicating Nazis is B.S.
 
Your first link.

Vladimir Putin has urged the Ukrainian military to "take power into its own hands" and overthrow president Volodymyr Zelensky.

In an apparent reference to Ukraine's leadership, the Russian president told troops it will be "easier to negotiate with you" than the "gang of Nazis that has captured Kyiv".

"I once again appeal to the military personnel of the armed forces of Ukraine: do not allow neo-Nazis to use your children, wives and elders as human shields," Mr Putin said.

"Take power into your own hands, it will be easier for us to reach an agreemen
t

That's not a demand is it.. despite the headline. that's hopeful propaganda by putin lol..


Looking dead-eyed into the camera on Friday, Vladimir Putin gave one of the most bizarre speeches of his 22 years as Russia’s leader, a directive that managed to sound alarming even in a week when he has ordered tanks into Ukraine and missile strikes on Kyiv.

“Once again I speak to the Ukrainian soldiers,” he said, addressing his enemy. “Do not allow neo-Nazis and Banderites to use your children, your wives and the elderly as a human shield. Take power into your own hands. It seems that it will be easier for us to come to an agreement than with this gang of drug addicts and neo-Nazis.”



None of these articles claim what you think they say... none of them say that the overthrow of Kiev is the goal....

Has his rhetoric changed? Yes.. but not his stated goals at the beginning, middle and current goals with what he's put on the table in his negotiation deals.... they're pretty much identical

Denazification was the 'stated goal'.

He called the Ukrainian regime 'nazis'.

How do you denazify and demilitarise Ukraine without regime change?
 
@Siver!
Actually considering he states it will be easier to negotiate with you ( the soldiers ) than the neo-Nazis currently in power leads me to believe he's planned to negotiate the entire time and not take Kiev.......

It leads me to believe he planned to install a militaristic autocrat akin to Lukashenko in Belarus and Kadyrov in Chechnya.

Of course Putin thinks it's easier to deal with military leaders, lol

Now he's realised that a militaristic autocrat a) won't happen and b) won't work, he's changed his ambitions for Ukraine.
 
It leads me to believe he planned to install a militaristic autocrat akin to Lukashenko in Belarus and Kadyrov in Chechnya.

Of course Putin thinks it's easier to deal with military leaders, lol

Now he's realised that a militaristic autocrat a) won't happen and b) won't work, he's changed his ambitions for Ukraine.


We disagree mate . It's simple as that. We've chewed up enough posts on here, I think.

All the best bud
 
Well maybe Russia should stop stoking separatist movements and conflicts in the region that feed into far right ideology... Give that a go Russia.

Or not and let Azov become the next ISIS. Their call I guess. 40 million radicalized people on their doorstep who just watched their entire way of life get washed, no big deal lol. That'll have no blowback on the region and russian people I'm sure.. :rolleyes:

They quite enjoy all this war stuff.. the extremists. It's where they go to train and recruit the family members of those slaughtered by enemy artillery while just minding their own business. Member when US military action in Iraq took al qaeda from cave dwelling terrorists to legitimate statehood? The neo nazis in eastern europe sure do.
 
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