International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. VI

[Samjj]

Do you think he is the only official holding such views and that an investigation wouldn't show a large populace of genocidal racists involved in the IDF and Israeli government? You're right in a sandbox that one quote is disgusting but not damning. Do you beleive there's nothing else If real digging is done?

No, and I think accusations of genocide are bogus histrionics and the Hague will find as such.

 

[kflo]

Do you think he is the only official holding such views and that an investigation wouldn't show a large populace of genocidal racists involved in the IDF and Israeli government? You're right in a sandbox that one quote is disgusting but not damning. Do you beleive there's nothing else If real digging is done?

No an investigation wouldn’t show that.

 

[William Munny]

Now? Who knows what is best at this point? The bed has already been shat.
What needed to happen should've been happening prior to Oct. 7th. This war and conflict didn't start there.

There's what should have happened the day after Oct. 7th, and then there's what should have been happening all along.
But it depends on what the goal is. Is the goal peace or eradication of Hamas? You're not going to get peace by simply wiping out Hamas, especially in the manner that it's been done. It appears that Israel's goal is just wiping out Hamas.

ACTUAL targeted strikes on Hamas locations and leadership as well as a focus on getting back the hostages should have been the priority. There were a ton of prisoners Israel had that they could have exchanged. Put the full political and economic pressure of the international community on the countries that shelter any member of the Hamas government and anyone that funds them.
As long as Gaza is a shithole and it's on your border, it's always going to be a problem. If you're not going to address the conditions of Gaza, then you're leaving yourself open to attacks. There's some personal accountability that Israel needs to take in how things got to where they are.

There's a ton of things that could have been done prior to Oct 7. The situation in Gaza was obviously untenable and it shouldn't be surprising that things eventually blew up. But asking what we should be doing now when they've been helping to build up this shitstorm for decades is a day late and a dollar short. If the US wants to maintain this adversarial relationship with Iran then they and others are going to support groups that go against the interests of the US. So this isn't just an issue with Israel or Hamas. There's bigger players that are making and/or enabling these events happen.
Instead of addressing any of this, all we hear from Israel and it's apologists are "But Hamas". The problem existed before Hamas, and it'll continue to exist even if you were able to disappear them all tomorrow.

solid, respectable answer.

 

[Cole train]

Is there any word how many merkava tank losses IDF has suffered? Saw 5 on some site

Mainly interested how effective trophy is since tanks all over will be fitted with something like it in future

 

[AZ103]

No, and I think accusations of genocide are bogus histrionics and the Hague will find as such.

Do you think Israel is committing war crimes? I don't give a fuck about if what they're doing constitutes a genocide, are they engaged in the unrestricted murder of innocent women and children within a certain area? That's all I care about. For any force. In any conflict. In any time. People who kill or authorize the killing of innocents deserve the worst, no matter if it's retaliation or not.

 

[AZ103]

No an investigation wouldn’t show that.

K

 

[Prick_Flair]

Turns out it's not just the pro Palestinian whack Jobs doing these types of protests

https://x.com/OrenZiv_/status/1746239009360155049?s=20

 

[Rholk]

 

[HereticBD]

Do you think Israel is committing war crimes? I don't give a fuck about if what they're doing constitutes a genocide, are they engaged in the unrestricted murder of innocent women and children within a certain area? That's all I care about. For any force. In any conflict. In any time. People who kill or authorize the killing of innocents deserve the worst, no matter if it's retaliation or not.

I think "war crimes" is a matter of semantics and who gets to decide what. Every military on Earth commits "war crimes", as war is very messy, involving bloodthirsty soldiers. The losers are the only ones who get charged and punished. In this instance, you have a very powerful military going ham on a lesser foe, who fucked fucked around and pissed them off. You could certainly make an argument for it, but it doesn't really matter.

That all said, why isn't the UN charging Palestine with "war crimes" over October 7th, or afterwards? Oh', because their terrorist government isn't recognized by the international community, or held to any international standard. That alone should tell you how pointless the process is. Israel is dealing with complete fucking maniacs, but only they have to follow rules? Yeah okay.

 

[ferrisjso]

I think that messaging is extremely problematic but in a court it would likely add very little to a claims of genocide if that’s what you’re implying.

In your opinion what WOULD it take to prove genocide in front of the ICJ? Like if you got to decide the definition.


Curious.

 

[HereticBD]

In your opinion what WOULD it take to prove genocide in front of the ICJ? Like if you got to decide the definition.


Curious.

Probably an actual genocide.

 

[ferrisjso]

Probably an actual genocide.

Well that immaculate definition is sure to clarify everything.

 

[HereticBD]

Well that immaculate definition is sure to clarify everything.

It certainly doesn't involve 20,000+ *civilian* deaths(*a big portion being Hamas cowards*), in a population of millions. The accusation is a fucking joke.

 

[Hog-train]

Adam - "Accuses the other guy of being intellectually lazy then says he gets his info from reputable sources like Fox News."

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

In your opinion what WOULD it take to prove genocide in front of the ICJ? Like if you got to decide the definition.


Curious.

Pardon for interjecting, for something like Genocide, the burden of proof is high, and beyond reasonable doubt. We have the acts committed by the IDF, so prosecutors would need to establish a direct and clear link between the physical acts and the intent. They'd probably need government/military documents (orders, directives, or policies that indicate intent) or similar eye witness accounts and or testimony. It would be difficult to prove Genocide in a situation like Gaza with Hamas embedded within the population. A charge of violating Proportionality would have a much better chance in court compared to Genocide in this case.

 

[AZ103]

I think "war crimes" is a matter of semantics and who gets to decide what. Every military on Earth commits "war crimes", as war is very messy, involving bloodthirsty soldiers. The losers are the only ones who get charged and punished. In this instance, you have a very powerful military going ham on a lesser foe, who fucked fucked around and pissed them off. You could certainly make an argument for it, but it doesn't really matter.

That all said, why isn't the UN charging Palestine with "war crimes" over October 7th, or afterwards? Oh', because their terrorist government isn't recognized by the international community, or held to any international standard. That alone should tell you how pointless the process is. Israel is dealing with complete fucking maniacs, but only they have to follow rules? Yeah okay.

That's the "truth" in the sense that because there is no consequence countries run wild. But it's not the actual truth which is that officials, not soldiers in the fog of war, are making clear cut decisions that are beyond unethical and they should be hung for it. There's plenty of them in the US government alone. I don't care if war crimes is a fake buzz word they swing around. They opened the box when they did the trial on Germany, as they should have, it's only too sad that we are inconsistent with the laws of war.

 

[Mr Holmes]

Any guesses?

 

[SmilinDesperado]

I think "war crimes" is a matter of semantics and who gets to decide what. Every military on Earth commits "war crimes", as war is very messy, involving bloodthirsty soldiers. The losers are the only ones who get charged and punished. In this instance, you have a very powerful military going ham on a lesser foe, who fucked fucked around and pissed them off. You could certainly make an argument for it, but it doesn't really matter.

That all said, why isn't the UN charging Palestine with "war crimes" over October 7th, or afterwards? Oh', because their terrorist government isn't recognized by the international community, or held to any international standard. That alone should tell you how pointless the process is. Israel is dealing with complete fucking maniacs, but only they have to follow rules? Yeah okay.

It isn't a free for all, or a matter of semantics, it's a matter of law. It's already been decided what war crimes are by the parties that agreed to sign the Geneva Conventions. Israel is one of those parties.
That's the problem with this, is that Israel and it's supporters want to pick and choose when laws matter and when they don't. If you think all is fair in war, and that you should be able to do whatever it takes to maintain the security of your country, then say that. But that's not what is happening. Israel and its supporters are claiming that they are following the laws, but then when they're called out on breaking the laws their counter argument is "But the Holocaust/Hamas/Blood libel/You're a hamas lover/what would you do if you had terrorists at your door?". None of that addresses the question of law.
Quit the gaslighting and be honest with your position--you either care about the law, or you don't.

You answered your own question. And your big take away from that is that there is a problem with the UN and their process, and not the conditions of Gaza and why it's not its own actual country?
How would it be possible for the UN to charge Hamas with war crimes? It's called the United Nations. Notice how we keep talking about a war against Hamas, and not Gaza? It's a ridiculous starting point to a conversation in regards to Gaza and Israel. A common theme in this story is that everyone wants to skip 10 chapters ahead and not address the shit that actually matters.
Israel helped create the asylum that they've been playing warden to that house the "complete fucking maniacs", and Israel agreed to follow the international rules of war.

 

[HereticBD]

It isn't a free for all, or a matter of semantics, it's a matter of law.

Not meaning to cut you off, but what "law" would that be? International law that never seems to be able to punish the winners of a war, or shit, just a powerful nation that doesn't give a fuck and spreads freedom all around the world with intense drone strikes? It's a joke. Look at the Iraq War. No "war crimes" committed by America there? Of course there were. Does it matter? No.

It's not that I don't care about "the law" in general, but an international court trying to hold entire nations to account? It's a joke, unless they happen to be on the losing end, or aren't taken seriously as a nation. It's all theater. In Bizarro World, where Germany won WW2 even after the atomic bombs were dropped, the allies would be facing charges for their "indiscriminate killing" of millions. That would be the "holocaust" you read about. They didn't win, so none of that shit matters. The Allies won, so they don't have to care about whatever they did to accomplish their victory, even if it included vaporizing millions.

It's war, not football.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

Not meaning to cut you off, but what "law" would that be? International law that never seems to be able to punish the winners of a war, or shit, just a powerful nation that doesn't give a fuck and spreads freedom all around the world with intense drone strikes? It's a joke. Look at the Iraq War. No "war crimes" committed by America there? Of course there were. Does it matter? No.

It's not that I don't care about "the law" in general, but an international court trying to hold entire nations to account? It's a joke, unless they happen to be on the losing end, or aren't taken seriously as a nation. It's all theater. In Bizarro World, where Germany won WW2 even after the atomic bombs were dropped, the allies would be facing charges for their "indiscriminate killing" of millions. That would be the "holocaust" you read about. They didn't win, so none of that shit matters. The Allies won, so they don't have to care about whatever they did to accomplish their victory, even if it included vaporizing millions.

It's war, not football.

The usefulness/uselessness of a body that has no real power to punish the powerful is a separate issue from the hypocrisy on display by Israel and its supporters.

I don't disagree that in practice, the UN is a joke because the powerful nations only care about these international organizations and rules when they're in their favor, or when they're trying to drum up the appearance of support to do something that they want. There's not a whole lot the UN can do if their most powerful member just decides they don't want to listen.

But the criticism here isn't about the UN's ineffectiveness, it's about the hypocrisy of Israel and its supporters. If you're the "children of the light", and are promoting democracy and the rule of law and order, and you're proclaiming to be the good guy, you don't get to turn that off when the situation gets inconvenient. If Israel's position was "We don't care about these rules. We have terrorists at our door, and we're going to do whatever we feel necessary to protect Israel", then at least that's an honest position. But they're not saying that first sentence.
So while the reality may be that they're going to do whatever they want and no one is likely going to hold them accountable, that doesn't mean the rest of the world has to pretend like they're not blatantly lying about it. And what we're seeing from Israel and its defenders are a bunch of fake morality arguments backed by bullshit. They can't even be honest with their position.