Change My Mind: A Society Cannot "Work" Itself to Equality

[IndyCovaHart]

Make enough of an impression to be a successor.

No one lives forever.

You’re welcome.

 

[RoastBeast]

Yes and no. An employee is contractually guaranteed their wages and the business owner takes the risk of starting the business and while the owner gets the profits the owner also eats the losses. Restaurant after restaurant opens up and the owner takes a bath and closes it down out some hundreds of thousands of dollars with nothing but memories to show for it. The waiters and dishwashers didn't make George Soros money...but they did get paid the whole time.

As the non entrepreneurial type, I've wondered if restaurant and bar owners that go out of business, say 3 years after they opened, can still be profitable overall?

It always seems like they are incredibly popular when they first open before their popularity wanes and they are forced to close doors.

Makes me wonder if the owner makes enough profit up front to offset the expenses of opening the business and as the restaurant trucks along a couple years later with the popularity waning, they pull the plug before they wind up under water? It's either that or they go into the business venture knowing they have extremely high odds of losing their ass and promptly lose their ass anyway.

 

[dc007]

The spoils go to the risk takers.

 

[jx820]

An employee is contractually guaranteed their wages and the business owner takes the risk of starting the business and while the owner gets the profits the owner also eats the losses.

This. Hence the old joke "You know how to make a small fortune in (insert industry or business here)... start with a large fortune".

You can't compare unequal things and expect equality. "The boss probably makes more" isn't a revelation it's common sense. However you can work yourself into the skills and experience required to be the boss or the owner over time.

These people mostly didn't start out as the boss or the owner. Sure there are the Zuckerburgs who the stars lined up for on the first attempt, but most successful people took a whole career to get where they are. Bob Iger wasn't born the CEO of Disney he started odd jobbing around a local TV studio in Ithica NY.

 

[BisexualMMA]

As the non entrepreneurial type, I've wondered if restaurant and bar owners that go out of business, say 3 years after they opened, can still be profitable overall?

It always seems like they are incredibly popular when they first open before their popularity wanes and they are forced to close doors.

Makes me wonder if the owner makes enough profit up front to offset the expenses of opening the business and as the restaurant trucks along a couple years later with the popularity waning, they pull the plug before they wind up under water? It's either that or they go into the business venture knowing they have extremely high odds of losing their ass and promptly lose their ass anyway.

I'm sure it happens from time to time where a place is the toast of the town for a year and a half and then the owner cuts bait when profits wane but while I'm no expert I think it's more common that owners chase the dream until they can't delude themselves anymore or the bank hits them in the face with the reality sledgehammer. I am guessing a flash in the pan place that was hot a year or two ago would most likely be purchased by some hopeful entrepreneur hoping to recapture the lightning...who may then go on the throwing good money after bad journey the first guy avoided.

 

[nostradumbass]

Well right away the premise is false, and so are the numbers. There are lots of employees who profit more than their boss or owner. My wife hires engineers who she pays more than she makes even though she's their boss. There's also franchise owners, who make more from their franchise than the parent company makes off that franchise, and it's not that uncommon for a manager to make more than the franchise owner, because franchise owners could own 10 franchises and hire managers for each one. Then there's the fact that most businesses fail, so not only do some employees make more than the owner, they all do.


The Walmart CEO makes $25 million/year, and they have 2.1 million employees, so he certainly doesn't make $27/hour/employee, he makes $12 per employee FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR. How the hell would a cashier or a greeter "produce" $54/hour anyway?

Owners/bosses generally make more money when they have more employees and make less off each one, and for those companies, like retail chains, the employees would get paid $17 hourly, and the CEO might make about 10 cents out of that, and the employees of retail chains don't even make any of the products they sell.

 

[RoastBeast]

I'm sure it happens from time to time where a place is the toast of the town for a year and a half and then the owner cuts bait when profits wane but while I'm no expert I think it's more common that owners chase the dream until they can't delude themselves anymore or the bank hits them in the face with the reality sledgehammer. I am guessing a flash in the pan place that was hot a year or two ago would most likely be purchased by some hopeful entrepreneur hoping to recapture the lightning...who may then go on the throwing good money after bad journey the first guy avoided.

Man it just seems like a heck of a lot of money to spend on something that has pretty low success rate. Guess it's like you said, chasing a dream.

 

[Scerpi]

After thinking about it, I just do not see how hard work, and I'm being specific here, can solve inequality.

No tldr but here is summary
A Boss or Owner will NOT allow his employees to profit more than him under ANY circumstances. This is more or less a law of the universe. There are very rare occurrences such as a machinist working 80 hrs a week for a year making more than his supervisor, but in 99.999% of cases the Boss will PROFIT more in EVERY circumstance than a rank and file Employee. Because they have more than one Employee, all the Profits flow to the Boss and it is IMPOSSIBLE to solve this issue, if you consider it an issue.


Example

Walmart pays their employees an average of $27(approx.)
Walmart generates $54 in money per hour per employee. So the shareholders are collecting 50% of the money. As the shareholders are generally richer they can do things like buy apartments houses fast food locations grocery stores. Everything.

Better example a small machine shop wit. 5 employees one owner. One supervisor 4 regular employees.
The workers make $25/hr. The supervisor makes $35/hr.
The company owner will not under any circumstances let his employees make more than him- he collects say 60% of income. 40% of the money earned by the business goes to the employee (this may be even overly generous, ufc pays 17%).
Let's say each employee generates $50 of net revenue per hour worked. So with 5 employees the boss is making (250 - 25*4 - 35) = $115/hr for each hour his shop is open. Minus bills he is making let's say $75/he in profit.
Owner has say $1 million and owns a home and car. He has no bills. No rent. His mortgage is lower than his employees' rent. He can use this $75/hr to purchase his employees apartments. His employees are giving him 25% of their money in rent.

So after purchasing the apartment he is now making

25 + 75 = $100/hr in pure profit.

Meanwhile his employees are pocketing after their expenses let's say $5/hr. That would be $600 per month a pretty good savings for working class.

Under this situation the MORE the workers work the greater the gap between the Owner and his Employees. Every hour they go to work his money is increasing much faster than each of theirs is, both individually and collectively.

These numbers are made up but for any business it seems to hold true. The Owner or shareholders ALWAYS 100% of the time will get richer faster than their employees will as long as their business stays open and is profitable. Which 99% of businesses are especially small local ones. No one's gonna keep a machine shop running unless it's generating profits.


Basically I think "workism" is corporate brainwashing and the only way to reverse inequality is to start your own business and NOT work for others. Or taxes. But I do not think you can "bootstrap" your way to Equality. It's just impossible mathematically.

Change my mind

If it's so fucking easy, just start your own company.... lol

Most people don't have the talent or work ethic or even the bravery to go on a such a venture..

Where
- Stress is through the roof
- Failure rates are high
- Work hours are 24/7

A huge majority of people are completely fine working for someone else to does the above. Show up at 8 and leave at 5. And they're able to completely unplug after work and the weekends.

But hey... If you're so envious of their success, there's literally NOTHING stopping you from trying to reach it yourself.


Except Yourself

 

[BisexualMMA]

To go back to where TS started...if I remember right Ben and Jerry's was founded with a policy where the highest paid manager / officer / senior executive couldn't make more than 6 times what the lowest paid employee made. They did this for a few years and were like...wtf are we doing? Then upped it to 10x, then 15x or 20x and I think finally said fuck this, you scrubs make minimum and we're doing the Enron golden parachute package.

Now they're like any lame ass corporation virtue signaling on Twitter but would outsource production to kids in an East African asbestos factory if it saved a buck.

 

[nostradumbass]

That's a fair point. For starting off businesses yeah there is a lot of risk. But what about a machine shop that's been open for 50+ years with paid off equipment, no investments, minimal taxes? That seems to be more typical that a restaurant. In that scenario the business Owner has basically no risk. His contracts are established, he has healthy margins, he's not really risking his finances in any way. For established businesses there's almost no risk and 100% profit.

There's nothing WRONG with this. It's just something I realized

There's not "no risk", the guy already did take the risk and spent over 50 years paying off equipment, either paying rent or paying off the building, building contracts, paying employees. Why on earth would some guy who showed up last week make as much as the guy who spent his entire life building it?

 

[blackheart]

After thinking about it, I just do not see how hard work, and I'm being specific here, can solve inequality.

No tldr but here is summary
A Boss or Owner will NOT allow his employees to profit more than him under ANY circumstances. This is more or less a law of the universe. There are very rare occurrences such as a machinist working 80 hrs a week for a year making more than his supervisor, but in 99.999% of cases the Boss will PROFIT more in EVERY circumstance than a rank and file Employee. Because they have more than one Employee, all the Profits flow to the Boss and it is IMPOSSIBLE to solve this issue, if you consider it an issue.


Example

Walmart pays their employees an average of $27(approx.)
Walmart generates $54 in money per hour per employee. So the shareholders are collecting 50% of the money. As the shareholders are generally richer they can do things like buy apartments houses fast food locations grocery stores. Everything.

Better example a small machine shop wit. 5 employees one owner. One supervisor 4 regular employees.
The workers make $25/hr. The supervisor makes $35/hr.
The company owner will not under any circumstances let his employees make more than him- he collects say 60% of income. 40% of the money earned by the business goes to the employee (this may be even overly generous, ufc pays 17%).
Let's say each employee generates $50 of net revenue per hour worked. So with 5 employees the boss is making (250 - 25*4 - 35) = $115/hr for each hour his shop is open. Minus bills he is making let's say $75/he in profit.
Owner has say $1 million and owns a home and car. He has no bills. No rent. His mortgage is lower than his employees' rent. He can use this $75/hr to purchase his employees apartments. His employees are giving him 25% of their money in rent.

So after purchasing the apartment he is now making

25 + 75 = $100/hr in pure profit.

Meanwhile his employees are pocketing after their expenses let's say $5/hr. That would be $600 per month a pretty good savings for working class.

Under this situation the MORE the workers work the greater the gap between the Owner and his Employees. Every hour they go to work his money is increasing much faster than each of theirs is, both individually and collectively.

These numbers are made up but for any business it seems to hold true. The Owner or shareholders ALWAYS 100% of the time will get richer faster than their employees will as long as their business stays open and is profitable. Which 99% of businesses are especially small local ones. No one's gonna keep a machine shop running unless it's generating profits.


Basically I think "workism" is corporate brainwashing and the only way to reverse inequality is to start your own business and NOT work for others. Or taxes. But I do not think you can "bootstrap" your way to Equality. It's just impossible mathematically.

Change my mind

What you've described is called capitalism. It's not some sort of fundamental rule governing the universe as you have assumed that it is. It is a very specific economic system. And there are other ways to organize an economy. It's as simple as that.

 

[sickc0d3r]

After thinking about it, I just do not see how hard work, and I'm being specific here, can solve inequality.

No tldr but here is summary
A Boss or Owner will NOT allow his employees to profit more than him under ANY circumstances. This is more or less a law of the universe. There are very rare occurrences such as a machinist working 80 hrs a week for a year making more than his supervisor, but in 99.999% of cases the Boss will PROFIT more in EVERY circumstance than a rank and file Employee. Because they have more than one Employee, all the Profits flow to the Boss and it is IMPOSSIBLE to solve this issue, if you consider it an issue.


Example

Walmart pays their employees an average of $27(approx.)
Walmart generates $54 in money per hour per employee. So the shareholders are collecting 50% of the money. As the shareholders are generally richer they can do things like buy apartments houses fast food locations grocery stores. Everything.

Better example a small machine shop wit. 5 employees one owner. One supervisor 4 regular employees.
The workers make $25/hr. The supervisor makes $35/hr.
The company owner will not under any circumstances let his employees make more than him- he collects say 60% of income. 40% of the money earned by the business goes to the employee (this may be even overly generous, ufc pays 17%).
Let's say each employee generates $50 of net revenue per hour worked. So with 5 employees the boss is making (250 - 25*4 - 35) = $115/hr for each hour his shop is open. Minus bills he is making let's say $75/he in profit.
Owner has say $1 million and owns a home and car. He has no bills. No rent. His mortgage is lower than his employees' rent. He can use this $75/hr to purchase his employees apartments. His employees are giving him 25% of their money in rent.

So after purchasing the apartment he is now making

25 + 75 = $100/hr in pure profit.

Meanwhile his employees are pocketing after their expenses let's say $5/hr. That would be $600 per month a pretty good savings for working class.

Under this situation the MORE the workers work the greater the gap between the Owner and his Employees. Every hour they go to work his money is increasing much faster than each of theirs is, both individually and collectively.

These numbers are made up but for any business it seems to hold true. The Owner or shareholders ALWAYS 100% of the time will get richer faster than their employees will as long as their business stays open and is profitable. Which 99% of businesses are especially small local ones. No one's gonna keep a machine shop running unless it's generating profits.


Basically I think "workism" is corporate brainwashing and the only way to reverse inequality is to start your own business and NOT work for others. Or taxes. But I do not think you can "bootstrap" your way to Equality. It's just impossible mathematically.

Change my mind

Fuck you for making me realize this. Dick.

 

[sickc0d3r]

Seriously, though, let’s promote small business kinda for that reason, shall we? Start with removing health care from the employer. How many people can’t venture out on their own because they need that employer health insurance for the family.

 

[terrapin]

After thinking about it, I just do not see how hard work, and I'm being specific here, can solve inequality.

No tldr but here is summary
A Boss or Owner will NOT allow his employees to profit more than him under ANY circumstances. This is more or less a law of the universe. There are very rare occurrences such as a machinist working 80 hrs a week for a year making more than his supervisor, but in 99.999% of cases the Boss will PROFIT more in EVERY circumstance than a rank and file Employee. Because they have more than one Employee, all the Profits flow to the Boss and it is IMPOSSIBLE to solve this issue, if you consider it an issue.


Example

Walmart pays their employees an average of $27(approx.)
Walmart generates $54 in money per hour per employee. So the shareholders are collecting 50% of the money. As the shareholders are generally richer they can do things like buy apartments houses fast food locations grocery stores. Everything.

Better example a small machine shop wit. 5 employees one owner. One supervisor 4 regular employees.
The workers make $25/hr. The supervisor makes $35/hr.
The company owner will not under any circumstances let his employees make more than him- he collects say 60% of income. 40% of the money earned by the business goes to the employee (this may be even overly generous, ufc pays 17%).
Let's say each employee generates $50 of net revenue per hour worked. So with 5 employees the boss is making (250 - 25*4 - 35) = $115/hr for each hour his shop is open. Minus bills he is making let's say $75/he in profit.
Owner has say $1 million and owns a home and car. He has no bills. No rent. His mortgage is lower than his employees' rent. He can use this $75/hr to purchase his employees apartments. His employees are giving him 25% of their money in rent.

So after purchasing the apartment he is now making

25 + 75 = $100/hr in pure profit.

Meanwhile his employees are pocketing after their expenses let's say $5/hr. That would be $600 per month a pretty good savings for working class.

Under this situation the MORE the workers work the greater the gap between the Owner and his Employees. Every hour they go to work his money is increasing much faster than each of theirs is, both individually and collectively.

These numbers are made up but for any business it seems to hold true. The Owner or shareholders ALWAYS 100% of the time will get richer faster than their employees will as long as their business stays open and is profitable. Which 99% of businesses are especially small local ones. No one's gonna keep a machine shop running unless it's generating profits.


Basically I think "workism" is corporate brainwashing and the only way to reverse inequality is to start your own business and NOT work for others. Or taxes. But I do not think you can "bootstrap" your way to Equality. It's just impossible mathematically.

Change my mind

I'm not sure that equality measured by income is even a goal we should pursue...

What we need to ensure is that everybody who works (and some who don't) has enough money to live a dignified life buy a home, provide health insurance for their children, etc.

Beyond that, if someone wants to make the mistake of getting richer on top of that, they should be allowed to in my opinion.

 

[kahiljabroni]

No, I just don't like the messaging that is pushed. Basically society is unequal and we all need to work a lot to get "back on track" financially. I don't think working overtime is going to help the situation as the Owner is still gonna rake in way more than 50% of the money at the end of the year.

A society can't "work hard" to get equality

I don't think anyone is saying just work more hours. I think If you're a machinist and you are the best machinist at that shop, and you show up on time with the right attitude that eventually you'll become a supervisor. Or better yet, you live extremely frugally and save up money to start your own machine shop.

I actually worked at a machine shop when I was 17 for my gfs father. He started the business himself and made an amazing living. Most of his employees were stoners, drinkers, etc. Some were very good at what they did. I was hired to clean out these massive machines, clean the premises and deliver orders occasionally. I quit when the summer was over and he eventually sold the biz for a couple mill


I guess the point is there is room for all types of people in a machine shop and an economy. You can be a type A, hard working, risk taking, entrepreneur....or you can just eke out a living. Both are OK. But they shouldn't both be paid the same

 

[kahiljabroni]

Seriously, though, let’s promote small business kinda for that reason, shall we? Start with removing health care from the employer. How many people can’t venture out on their own because they need that employer health insurance for the family.

Thanks Obama. Literally

 

[kahiljabroni]

I'm not sure that equality measured by income is even a goal we should pursue...

What we need to ensure is that everybody who works (and some who don't) has enough money to live a dignified life buy a home, provide health insurance for their children, etc.

Beyond that, if someone wants to make the mistake of getting richer on top of that, they should be allowed to in my opinion.

I think everyone can own a home in this current economy. You just can't live in a desirable home in a highly desirable area. And you can't do it right away.


Work any job and do it well long enough and you can save a down payment. You might have to work from 18 to 38 to achieve it but if you are frugal than it's possible. You might even have to relocate to a cheaper area but it's possible.

I mean fast food is paying 20 bucks now. Go rent a room for 400 a month and work 50 hours a week and you'll save 10k a year. After 5 years, take your 50k and put it down on a 200k house somewhere. It's not that hard really

 

[Contempt]

Agreed, and I think when most people say "equality" what they really mean is "fairness." At some point the disparity just becomes ridiculous.

...and of course, who decides what is "fair"?

 

[Bballfan123]

Well right away the premise is false, and so are the numbers. There are lots of employees who profit more than their boss or owner. My wife hires engineers who she pays more than she makes even though she's their boss. There's also franchise owners, who make more from their franchise than the parent company makes off that franchise, and it's not that uncommon for a manager to make more than the franchise owner, because franchise owners could own 10 franchises and hire managers for each one. Then there's the fact that most businesses fail, so not only do some employees make more than the owner, they all do.


The Walmart CEO makes $25 million/year, and they have 2.1 million employees, so he certainly doesn't make $27/hour/employee, he makes $12 per employee FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR. How the hell would a cashier or a greeter "produce" $54/hour anyway?

Owners/bosses generally make more money when they have more employees and make less off each one, and for those companies, like retail chains, the employees would get paid $17 hourly, and the CEO might make about 10 cents out of that, and the employees of retail chains don't even make any of the products they sell.

So your wife is in a position to pay more than she brings home in a year? That is most unusual. She has multiple engineers making say $100-150k yet generates less profit than that at the end of the year? Hmmm....

Of course a cashier makes that much money, unless you think only the absolute lowest employee "makes" things, in which case none of us have real jobs we all mooch off some farmer or factory worker in Bangladesh. They work harder than all of us.

Theyl cashiers aren't "making money" they are generating revenue. In total a Walmart probably makes well north of $100 millions a year. Possibly $500M. You are VASTLY underestimating how much money a Walmart pulls in. The workers together run the business, the business generates billions and billions. It's not all profit but a lot is.

"Walmart's revenue is $611.3 billion.
Walmart has 2,300,000 employees, and the revenue per employee ratio is $265,778. Walmart's peak quarterly revenue was $164.0B in 2022(q4). Walmart peak revenue was $611.3B in 2022. Walmart annual revenue for 2021 was 572.8B, 2.43% growth from 2020."

Easy algebra. Each employee generates $265,000. Every single one.

Walmart gross profit for the quarter ending October 31, 2023 was $39.621B, a 6.51% increase year-over-year.


Walmart gross profit for the twelve months ending October 31, 2023 was $155.045B, a 5.98% increase year-over-year.
Walmart annual gross profit for 2023 was $147.568B, a 2.65% increase from 2022.
Walmart annual gross profit for 2022 was $143.754B, a 3.54% increase from 2021.
Walmart annual gross profit for 2021 was $138.836B, a 7.33% increase from 2020.

They made $155 BILLION in pure profit last year. They have 2.3 million employees.


Average - $70,000 in profit last year.
So the average Walmart worker generates $250,000 a year for Walmart and the company profits $70,000 off their labor. This is public info lol, they're a publicly traded company it's no secret

 

[sickc0d3r]

Thanks Obama. Literally

Not sure I understand. Are you saying unemployed health insurance was cheaper before the ACA?