Media Breakdown of why Arman Tsarukyan never tapped to Charles Oliveira's submission attempts

[Mohawk Banditó]

They say two, which is funny to me considering the few people I saw trying to even give Charles credit for some mystery third attempt that was never even close to being a thing

 

[Conan the K-9]

They say two, which is funny to me considering the few people I saw trying to even give Charles credit for some mystery third attempt that was never even close to being a thing

The official stats say 4.

Stats | UFC

ufcstats.com

 

[Hairrow]

Why is that BS? A submission that's locked in but doesn't finish still represents an action with intent to end the fight. You might as well say rocking someone with a punch shouldn't score because it doesn't actually put the guy away.

Isn't rocking someone different in a sense that it adds to the total damage accumulation. You rock someone a number of times it is different than locking a number of submissions that don't amount to anything.

 

[Conan the K-9]

Isn't rocking someone different in a sense that it adds to the total damage accumulation. You rock someone a number of times it is different than locking a number of submissions that don't amount to anything.

Never been put in to a submission and had to defend it?

 

[Hairrow]

Never been put in to a submission and had to defend it?

I have; the one applying often burns out their arms. It's not the same as someone turning opponents face into mush.

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

The official stats say 4.

Stats | UFC

ufcstats.com

Oh I'm aware how many attempts there were. I'm saying people were trying to say the amount of times Arman was in danger

 

[Conan the K-9]

Oh I'm aware how many attempts there were. I'm saying people were trying to say the amount of times Arman was in danger

I think he was once in real danger and twice saved by the bell.

 

[Conan the K-9]

I have; the one applying often burns out their arms. It's not the same as someone turning opponents face into mush.

A submission attempt can cause serious injury even if it does not end the fight, like Ferguson arm, Mokaev knee etc. Getting almost choked out wears your cardio a lot.

 

[Koro_11]

Why is that BS? A submission that's locked in but doesn't finish still represents an action with intent to end the fight. You might as well say rocking someone with a punch shouldn't score because it doesn't actually put the guy away.

A submission attempt that failed is more like a thrown strike that didn't land.

 

[KoreanZawmbie]

Renner is awesome at breaking down subs and defense. I trained with his pops and Royce back in the early 90s.

His dad Rorion is easily the best instructor I have ever learned from. Same type of intricate explanation and repetition on techniques where you can't fail to pick them up and understand how to apply them.

Thats awesome, I assume you're from SoCal? I visited their old studio located in Torrance, way back in the days when I was attending CSULB. This was like early 2005-2006ish. Even saw Brian Ortega there, he was teaching classes as a blue belt.

 

[Hairrow]

A submission attempt can cause serious injury even if it does not end the fight, like Ferguson arm, Mokaev knee etc. Getting almost choked out wears your cardio a lot.

In those cases--where it injures something--sure. I'd take cuts, broken noses and fog over failed guillotines and the like.

 

[DoctorTaco]

prone, I legit thought he went limp cause Charles put him out.

Same

 

[Arm Barbarian]

Thats awesome, I assume you're from SoCal? I visited their old studio located in Torrance, way back in the days when I was attending CSULB. This was like early 2005-2006ish. Even saw Brian Ortega there, he was teaching classes as a blue belt.

Yep! That is where I trained, in Torrance. Lowell and Fabio Santos were their other instructors back then. Rickson would drop in once in a while to roll with students. They used to show footage of a bunch of their challenge matches on VHS tapes in the lobby. It was a lot of fun back then.

 

[BowserJr]

Rocking someone is actually doing damage though. Almost getting a submission hold but doing no damage is like almost taking someone down

Locking a submission certainly does damage even if the guy doesn't tap or go out. Injuries come from subs all the time. With chokes they drain the gas tank tremendously

 

[BowserJr]

It's scored as effective grappling.

Why are so many people on this forum convinced that the judges didn't score these actions for Oliveira?

Locked in sub where the opponent is subbed by the bell trumps the opponents top control for however many minutes

It's like landing 100 punches with no damage, or rocking of the opponent vs 10 punches landing and 3 of them producing knock downs. The 10 punches, heck even 1 punch 1 knock down is more effective than 100 weak punches

 

[Rationality]

Yep! That is where I trained, in Torrance. Lowell and Fabio Santos were their other instructors back then. Rickson would drop in once in a while to roll with students. They used to show footage of a bunch of their challenge matches on VHS tapes in the lobby. It was a lot of fun back then.

I'm a Rickson believer, from a distance. Can you comment on if the 400-0 is true or at least close? Was he that good for his era? Serious question. I've got his book btw.

 

[Poatan Power]

The darce at the end looked gnarly but Arman was never in any danger of tapping, the dude jumped right up. Lol’d when DC said it depends how you score “almost submissions” or some bs.

Have you read the scoring criteria?

I swear you guys have no clue what you're looking at or what the rules are to what you're watching sometimes.

(not being mean, but I see this posted a lot).

PRIORITIZED CRITERIA:

Effective Striking/Grappling

“Legal blows that have immediate or cumulative impact with the potential to contribute towards the end of the match with the IMMEDIATE weighing in more heavily than the cumulative impact.

Successful execution of takedowns, submission attempts, reversals and the achievement of advantageous positions that produce immediate or cumulative impact with the potential to contribute to the end of the match, with the IMMEDIATE weighing more heavily than the cumulative impact.” It shall be noted that a successful takedown is not merely a changing of position, but the establishment of an attack from the use of the takedown.

Top and bottom position fighters are assessed more on the impactful/effective result of their actions, more so than their position. This criterion will be the deciding factor in a high majority of decisions when scoring a round. The next two criteria must be treated as a backup and used ONLY when Effective Striking/Grappling is 100% equal for the round.

Effective Aggressiveness

“Aggressively making attempts to finish the fight. The key term is ‘effective’. Chasing after an opponent with no effective result or impact should not render in the judges’ assessments.”

Effective Aggressiveness is only to be assessed if Effective Striking/Grappling is 100% equal for both competitors.

Fighting Area Control

“Fighting area control is assessed by determining who is dictating the pace, place and position of the match.” Fighting Area Control” shall only to be assessed if Effective Striking/Grappling and Effective Aggressiveness is 100% equal for both competitors. This will be assessed very rarely.

I didn't make the rules but you have to be aware of them

Rocking someone is actually doing damage though. Almost getting a submission hold but doing no damage is like almost taking someone down

See, like this. You can't just flippantly make up rules to judge by. Submission attempts (especially ones that are effectively applied and close to being finished) are obviously weighted in the judging criteria. At least on paper.

A haymaker that misses the target for a few inches also represents an action with the intent to end the fight.

DC sucks at commentating to. He should stick to keep getting fatter and fatter.

Umm, no. Missing a punch is not the same as having someone's neck or limb cranked into a position of getting wrecked from a dominant grappling position. Jesus Christ dude.

 

[Corona]

Have you read the scoring criteria?

I swear you guys have no clue what you're looking at or what the rules are to what you're watching sometimes.

(not being mean, but I see this posted a lot).



I didn't make the rules but you have to be aware of them



See, like this. You can't just flippantly make up rules to judge by. Submission attempts (especially ones that are effectively applied and close to being finished) are obviously weighted in the judging criteria. At least on paper.

I don’t necessarily disagree with you but rather dc suggesting that putting up a last minute sub attempt for 30 seconds or whatever could be enough to turn the round in Charles’ favor after Arman seemingly controlled the round before that. If he held that position for a few minutes then sure I could see his point. The severity of choke holds is hard to gauge, but based on how nonchalant Arman was when it was applied and when he got up I don’t think it was very effective.

 

[Arm Barbarian]

I'm a Rickson believer, from a distance. Can you comment on if the 400-0 is true or at least close? Was he that good for his era? Serious question. I've got his book btw.

It's a bit misconstrued tbh. A lot of it has to do with formal competition, such as Jiu Jitsu matches, etc. Its not all about actual fights. Rickson was ridiculously good, but the crazier part was his older brother Rolls was actually even better. He used to submit Rickson on the regular when they sparred.Rolls unfortunately died in a hang gliding accident before his major rise to fame.

 

[Rationality]

It's a bit misconstrued tbh. A lot of it has to do with formal competition, such as Jiu Jitsu matches, etc. Its not all about actual fights. Rickson was ridiculously good, but the crazier part was his older brother Rolls was actually even better. He used to submit Rickson on the regular when they sparred.Rolls unfortunately died in a hang gliding accident before his major rise to fame.

Very cool to hear something first hand. Thanks.