Academic Education vs Self-learning and Passion in Music!

[loyalyolayal]

Not sure if this is a insult or not. What I was getting at is you can dabble around for a long time and make some ok music but its not until you truly train yourself that I would consider someone a skilled musician. If someone tells you they are playing in Gmin7 but you have no idea what that means, your not going to be on the same page and play well together.

No offense meant. Expressionist painters who can't draw proper anatomy is hilarious to me.

 

[Jackonfire]

How many great musicians, singers songwriters has Academia produced as opposed to the (often times) passionate obsessed self-taught one's?

One Example:

This kid seems happy doing her thing, (I wonder if her parents approve or disprove because its not a classical instrument?)



My wife is Chinese and almost all of her Chinese friends with kids force those kids to play piano and violin. (among other shit)

99% of those kids absolutely hate it, but do it. They're academic mechanical automatrons.

One of her Friends has a PHD in Music Composition and teaches music and theory at the University of Houston. She told us that in 25 years she has yet to have one single student come thru who ever made a successful or even marginal career out of music, period. She said she doesn't even consider herself a musician, just an employed teacher.

This is my impression of Public School Music Depts.


I feel Music programs in Public Schools today aren't setup to nurture music or instill passion necessarily, but to facilitate instrument sales for marching bands to accompany the football team.

How much do marching bands pay these days? If you asked to play a bass, they'd tell you no.


Certainly there are other fields this applies too, Music and the Arts seem standout examples, and of course some fields are undoable without Structured School, Math and Phsyics come to mind.

Of the people who successfully make a career out of Music, I can't think of many if any who weren't mostly self-taught and or had a passion for it.

Does it even matter, since those with the passion will find a way and all will sort itself out in the end?

Opinions?

Anyone got any stories of true brilliance from Academia, in Music?

@Overpressure
@Jackonfire
@Oku
@Jesse Pinkman
@Strychnine
@mikehunt
@Cubo de Sangre
@Rimbaud82
@Chad The Limey
@steve38
@mushishi
@Zer
@therealdope
@ShinkanPo
@loyalyolayal

You the unlucky tagged are the only handles I could remember at the moment.

Well, the idea behind teaching music in schools isn't to produce world class musicians.

Research has found that learning music facilitates learning other subjects and enhances skills that children inevitably use in other areas. “A music-rich experience for children of singing, listening and moving is really bringing a very serious benefit to children as they progress into more formal learning,” says Mary Luehrisen, executive director of the National Association of Music Merchants (NAMM) Foundation, a not-for-profit association that promotes the benefits of making music.

When you look at children ages two to nine, one of the breakthroughs in that area is music’s benefit for language development, which is so important at that stage,” says Luehrisen. While children come into the world ready to decode sounds and words, music education helps enhance those natural abilities. Recent studies have clearly indicated that musical training physically develops the part of the left side of the brain known to be involved with processing language, and can actually wire the brain’s circuits in specific ways. Linking familiar songs to new information can also help imprint information on young minds

Research indicates the brain of a musician, even a young one, works differently than that of a nonmusician. “There’s some good neuroscience research that children involved in music have larger growth of neural activity than people not in music training. When you’re a musician and you’re playing an instrument, you have to be using more of your brain,” says Dr. Eric Rasmussen, chair of the Early Childhood Music Department at the Peabody Preparatory of The Johns Hopkins University, where he teaches a specialized music curriculum for children aged two months to nine years.

A study published in 2007 by Christopher Johnson, professor of music education and music therapy at the University of Kansas, revealed that students in elementary schools with superior music education programs scored around 22 percent higher in English and 20 percent higher in math scores on standardized tests, compared to schools with low-quality music programs, regardless of socioeconomic disparities among the schools or school districts. Johnson compares the concentration that music training requires to the focus needed to perform well on a standardized test.

http://www.pbs.org/parents/education/music-arts/the-benefits-of-music-education/

There's a lot more but I'm not going to paste it here. It would seem learning to play music has advantages to other areas of learning as well. I'm guessing your wife's friends know this. I doubt they are trying to create a world class musician although if that were to happen I'm sure they would be happy.

 

[rj144]

How many great musicians, singers songwriters has Academia produced as opposed to the (often times) passionate obsessed self-taught one's?

One Example:

This kid seems happy doing her thing, (I wonder if her parents approve or disprove because its not a classical instrument?)



My wife is Chinese and almost all of her Chinese friends with kids force those kids to play piano and violin. (among other shit)

99% of those kids absolutely hate it, but do it. They're academic mechanical automatrons.

One of her Friends has a PHD in Music Composition and teaches music and theory at the University of Houston. She told us that in 25 years she has yet to have one single student come thru who ever made a successful or even marginal career out of music, period. She said she doesn't even consider herself a musician, just an employed teacher.

This is my impression of Public School Music Depts.


I feel Music programs in Public Schools today aren't setup to nurture music or instill passion necessarily, but to facilitate instrument sales for marching bands to accompany the football team.

How much do marching bands pay these days? If you asked to play a bass, they'd tell you no.


Certainly there are other fields this applies too, Music and the Arts seem standout examples, and of course some fields are undoable without Structured School, Math and Phsyics come to mind.

Of the people who successfully make a career out of Music, I can't think of many if any who weren't mostly self-taught and or had a passion for it.

Does it even matter, since those with the passion will find a way and all will sort itself out in the end?

Opinions?

Anyone got any stories of true brilliance from Academia, in Music?

@Overpressure
@Jackonfire
@Oku
@Jesse Pinkman
@Strychnine
@mikehunt
@Cubo de Sangre
@Rimbaud82
@Chad The Limey
@steve38
@mushishi
@Zer
@therealdope
@ShinkanPo
@loyalyolayal

You the unlucky tagged are the only handles I could remember at the moment.

John Mayer went to Berklee. Andrew Bird majored in music. My friend played in Spinnette and went to Berklee. I can think of more if you want.

The point is there are plenty that went to school for music and are professional musicians now.

 

[number 9]

I have been a musician for about 12 years. I picked up the guitar about 6 years ago. While I agree you have to have passion, unless your a music savant you wont ever become truly good until you practice those "boring" techniques. If you dont know your scales or basic music theory, you will have a lot of problems playing music with other people. You have to "speak the language" to play music with others. It stops being fun if your guitar or piano skills suck and every song you try to play is difficult because you didnt practice. Im still not very good IMO and I practice 10 hours a week on average.

Not really, I dunno scales are any music theory. I just play around with chords until a sound comes out that makes sense then put the riffs together

when I Jam with other musicians (guitarist, bassist and drummers) we all seem to be in sync and have no problems

 

[mushishi]

Seems like most innovation in modern popular music came from those without degrees and formal training; just some kids getting together and having fun.

 

[Mondo Freaks]

Most of the professional musicians I know took classes or learned it from another person.

 

[chrisdiaz]

Not really, I dunno scales are any music theory. I just play around with chords until a sound comes out that makes sense then put the riffs together

when I Jam with other musicians (guitarist, bassist and drummers) we all seem to be in sync and have no problems

I find that VERY hard to believe, at least the jamming part. How do you write riffs if you dont know what notes to play together? how do you know where the the E note is on the B string? If you know that you know a little theory. Also knowing chords is basic music theory. If you dont know your major or minor scales(you may and just dont know it) You are doing yourself a major disservice by not learning them. Ignorance is not bliss here my friend, it makes a world of difference. I produced for years without knowing what the hell I was doing and Its MUCH easier now to come up with song Ideas if I know what keys go together.

 

[Osculater]

Wonder was this going through his mind while marching?

Yeah thinking of all the hawt cheerleaders in the football game

 

[ralphc1]

Well, the idea behind teaching music in schools isn't to produce world class musicians.

Research has found that learning music facilitates learning other subjects and enhances skills that children inevitably use in other areas. “A music-rich experience for children of singing, listening and moving is really bringing a very serious benefit to children as they progress into more formal learning,” says Mary Luehrisen, executive director of the National Association of Music Merchants (NAMM) Foundation, a not-for-profit association that promotes the benefits of making music.

When you look at children ages two to nine, one of the breakthroughs in that area is music’s benefit for language development, which is so important at that stage,” says Luehrisen. While children come into the world ready to decode sounds and words, music education helps enhance those natural abilities. Recent studies have clearly indicated that musical training physically develops the part of the left side of the brain known to be involved with processing language, and can actually wire the brain’s circuits in specific ways. Linking familiar songs to new information can also help imprint information on young minds

Research indicates the brain of a musician, even a young one, works differently than that of a nonmusician. “There’s some good neuroscience research that children involved in music have larger growth of neural activity than people not in music training. When you’re a musician and you’re playing an instrument, you have to be using more of your brain,” says Dr. Eric Rasmussen, chair of the Early Childhood Music Department at the Peabody Preparatory of The Johns Hopkins University, where he teaches a specialized music curriculum for children aged two months to nine years.

A study published in 2007 by Christopher Johnson, professor of music education and music therapy at the University of Kansas, revealed that students in elementary schools with superior music education programs scored around 22 percent higher in English and 20 percent higher in math scores on standardized tests, compared to schools with low-quality music programs, regardless of socioeconomic disparities among the schools or school districts. Johnson compares the concentration that music training requires to the focus needed to perform well on a standardized test.

http://www.pbs.org/parents/education/music-arts/the-benefits-of-music-education/

There's a lot more but I'm not going to paste it here. It would seem learning to play music has advantages to other areas of learning as well. I'm guessing your wife's friends know this. I doubt they are trying to create a world class musician although if that were to happen I'm sure they would be happy.

It becomes a question of which came first, the ability or the music? Learning to read music is like learning a language so it isn't surprising that those who do well in music also do well in other languages.

I was forced into music in third grade because I was reading at a level far ahead of others my age. I liked to read which might have been why I was good at it or maybe because reading came easy for me was why I liked it. When we would read aloud in class, I'd be pages ahead. I started holding textbooks upside down to slow down my reading. The teacher would be walking around , see my book upside down and call on me to read. I would read with the book upside down to the teacher's amazement. I assumed everyone could do that.

It was decided that I should take violin lessons. I never liked it and was never very good at it. I was asked to switch to string bass in 8th grade and I did because I couldn't take it home to practice. I played through 10th grade. I started playing drums in 9th grade in the marching band. When we moved to a different city after 10th grade I quit both. I also quit Spanish to take electronics and machine shop classes.

I'm certain people do better at things that they like to do.

 

[number 9]

I find that VERY hard to believe, at least the jamming part. How do you write riffs if you dont know what notes to play together? how do you know where the the E note is on the B string? If you know that you know a little theory. Also knowing chords is basic music theory. If you dont know your major or minor scales(you may and just dont know it) You are doing yourself a major disservice by not learning them. Ignorance is not bliss here my friend, it makes a world of difference. I produced for years without knowing what the hell I was doing and Its MUCH easier now to come up with song Ideas if I know what keys go together.

E note on B string?

Hmm, I know that the thickest string goes at the very top and you move down to the thinnest string at the bottom

Obviously, when I first played I looked at a tab (music sheet that had numbers) I knew how the song sounded so to learn the song all I needed was the numbers which the tab provided

If I know how a song sounds all I need are the numbers...

example: like it'll show 3 on the low E string, so I'll strike the top string on the third fret etc etc

I think I was able to understand how to write riffs by understanding how tabbing works after tabbing couple of my favorite songs...

Why is it hard to believe about the jamming part? What kind of jamming are you talking about? To me there's 2 kinds

1. Me and the other guitar player had riffs written so we put them together, showed it to the bassist, then let the drummer do his thing and just play...

2. or everyone would just play spontaneously (sounds a lil chaotic) but eventually a sound that'll make sense come out of it.

I dunno man... I don't think it's about being ignorant... some things are best understood doing what works best for you, and reading about music just doesn't make any sense to me.

To me I just have to hear the rhythm and go from there...

 

[Jackonfire]

It becomes a question of which came first, the ability or the music? Learning to read music is like learning a language so it isn't surprising that those who do well in music also do well in other languages.

I was forced into music in third grade because I was reading at a level far ahead of others my age. I liked to read which might have been why I was good at it or maybe because reading came easy for me was why I liked it. When we would read aloud in class, I'd be pages ahead. I started holding textbooks upside down to slow down my reading. The teacher would be walking around , see my book upside down and call on me to read. I would read with the book upside down to the teacher's amazement. I assumed everyone could do that.

It was decided that I should take violin lessons. I never liked it and was never very good at it. I was asked to switch to string bass in 8th grade and I did because I couldn't take it home to practice. I played through 10th grade. I started playing drums in 9th grade in the marching band. When we moved to a different city after 10th grade I quit both. I also quit Spanish to take electronics and machine shop classes.

I'm certain people do better at things that they like to do.

Sure. But I don't think the goal of teaching music to younger students is to produce world class musicians. Its to imprint new neural pathways that will cross over to other areas of learning. So even those students who don't like playing music will still benefit in other areas.

 

[chrisdiaz]

E note on B string?

Hmm, I know that the thickest string goes at the very top and you move down to the thinnest string at the bottom

Obviously, when I first played I looked at a tab (music sheet that had numbers) I knew how the song sounded so to learn the song all I needed was the numbers which the tab provided

If I know how a song sounds all I need are the numbers...

example: like it'll show 3 on the low E string, so I'll strike the top string on the third fret etc etc

I think I was able to understand how to write riffs by understanding how tabbing works after tabbing couple of my favorite songs...

Why is it hard to believe about the jamming part? What kind of jamming are you talking about? To me there's 2 kinds

1. Me and the other guitar player had riffs written so we put them together, showed it to the bassist, then let the drummer do his thing and just play...

2. or everyone would just play spontaneously (sounds a lil chaotic) but eventually a sound that'll make sense come out of it.

I dunno man... I don't think it's about being ignorant... some things are best understood doing what works best for you, and reading about music just doesn't make any sense to me.

To me I just have to hear the rhythm and go from there...

Fair enough. I just went through many years kinda doing what your talking about and once I started learning theory and especially scales, It changed everything.

The chaotic thing your talking about wouldnt happen anymore. It would just be natural. At least learn the major scale. If your playing guitar, its root-wholestep-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half. So looking at E, its
1.E
2.F#
3.G#
4.A
5.B
6.C#-
7.D#

back to E. Those are the notes or chords that sound natural in the major scale together. the 2 and 3 and 6 are played in minor chords. A is maj and the B is Maj7.

This is what people mean when they play a 1-4-5 or something.

I would highly advise watching this video, it really helped me.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

John Mayer went to Berklee. Andrew Bird majored in music. My friend played in Spinnette and went to Berklee. I can think of more if you want.

The point is there are plenty that went to school for music and are professional musicians now.

Oh yeah Berzerkley!

These guys went there too! Good point.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

Seems like most innovation in modern popular music came from those without degrees and formal training; just some kids getting together and having fun.

Maybe all of its true one degree or another?


I went to school with a kid who played the drums, he never talked about it but one day they brought us all into the auditorium and there he was behind a big ass drum set. Then he starts whoopin on them like a mofo. This was like 5th grade. I was shocked anyone from our school had talent!

These are all high end examples.

I remember hearing Maybe Don Henley of the Eagles says he dropped out of band to play in a band.

https://www.joytunes.com/blog/music-fun/15-famous-musicians-totally-self-taught/

https://www.buzzle.com/articles/legendary-musicians-who-never-learned-how-to-read-music.html

 

[mushishi]

Oh yeah Berzerkley!

These guys went there too! Good point.

So did this guy!

 

[Luminosity]

The main point I have seen in music departments in universities is that students can make really good contacts, both with other students and those in the professional field. Apart from skill based teaching, universities work as social meeting points for all those involved in the creative arts. I can only speak from the perspective of a visual artist, but I am still in contact with artists, curators and museum directors from all over the world that I studied with, as well as staff that taught me and in turn introduced me to other professionals. Working in universities I have seen the same thing in music, especially faculties that employ quality staff who not only are practicing musicians themselves but also have great connections to the professional world.

 

[Eazy123]

Dave Grohl taught himself.

Guess that didn't work out.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

So did this guy!

That's right him too! Ha.

I shoulda studied more!

 

[number 9]

Fair enough. I just went through many years kinda doing what your talking about and once I started learning theory and especially scales, It changed everything.

The chaotic thing your talking about wouldnt happen anymore. It would just be natural. At least learn the major scale. If your playing guitar, its root-wholestep-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half. So looking at E, its
1.E
2.F#
3.G#
4.A
5.B
6.C#-
7.D#

back to E. Those are the notes or chords that sound natural in the major scale together. the 2 and 3 and 6 are played in minor chords. A is maj and the B is Maj7.

This is what people mean when they play a 1-4-5 or something.

I would highly advise watching this video, it really helped me.

Oh so you're talking about #2 jamming?

I rarely jam like that.

I like to jam by having riffs written and everybody has theirs written and put them together with the drummer doing his thing.

Yea, it's the things you explained with the 1-7 thing and the A is maj and B is maj7 etc etc? Stuff like that confuse the hell out of me...

I did try reading about music theory and all that other stuff when I first started, but it was just killing my feeling to play so I never bothered with it.

It kinda messes with my thought process on making music. I just need to know the frets and the numbers...

people that understand what you're talking about seem to dig my sound, so I think I'm at least doing something right...

To me personally... especially when you're playing music, it's just something you don't really have to understand.
you just play. I guess you just try to feel the sounds and the rhythm... and if you're playing constantly, eventually you'll get comfortable to the point you kinda do understand... I dunno man it's kind of hard to explain...

But I'll check the video out. Thanks

 

[Magooglie]

Are you Kanye West?

I think it's important if you're going to school for music you go to a music school where the teachers are professional musicians/industry people and the school is catered to its students becoming professional musicians.