International Active US Air Force member self-immolates outside Israel Embassy in Washington

[Hellboy31]

No.
Given what he went through, he deserves the respect of being clear about what he chose to die for and in that manner.
He was not mentally ill, he was aghast at what he saw as the military being complicit in war crimes and wanted to take a stand against it.


I agree it wasn't the best way to launch a protest, but he obviously felt powerless to do anything and you can't really disagree with him. He felt this was a way of making a statement that would make an impact and be remembered, like the famous Vietnamese monk self immolation.

What an absolute load of drivel. You know damn well he was mentally ill but you romanticize it because of your own political agenda. It’s beyond dishonest. What an absolute lack of moral character.

 

[terrapin]

no it is not

I was raised Roman Catholic, not once was I taught martyrdom was heroic or a good thing. especially self induced. you are just either a troll or simply retarded. suicide is not looked fondly upon by God. you destroyed what he I believe you when you say you were never thought about it, but that's not surprising as there are tons of lazy priests who don't teach good theology.. why don't you go back to washing the gays feet, and leave actual

It is especially valued in the Catholic Tradition. If you are martyred for Catholicism it makes you a saint instantly.

I'm sure you are a good catholic but you missed the day they taught about martyrs in school and have missed the connection between Jesus willing sacrifice for others and the disciples also.

"no greater love does a man have than that he would lay down his life for his friend's"

 

[terrapin]

What an absolute load of drivel. You know damn well he was mentally ill but you romanticize it because of your own political agenda. It’s beyond dishonest. What an absolute lack of moral character.

rather than slander his position disingenuously why don't you actually address his position? its fine if you disagree but why reduce yourself to slander and pretending to know his actual thoughts and motives?

 

[SmilinDesperado]

Believing in reincarnation cannot be the only possible justification for martyrdom can it? Can you really think of no other spiritual motivation that is justifiable in that context? What about a secular motivation?

But also saying that the monks are more justified because it directly affects their people is actually working against your argument in my opinion. It would be a greater act of love for a person to give their life for a people that was not their own rather than their own.

And if he didn't believe in the afterlife at all, it might even be considered a greater act of love because there was no reward whatsoever, only the self sacrifice for the greater good. That might even be more selfless.

This isn't about justification. Anybody can feel justified to do whatever it is they do according to their own personal code.
I can't tell him that he can't feel justified in doing whatever it is he does according to his own code.

My point is about what makes sense? If I have a problem in front of me, and I drew up 10 different battle plans to solve it, these plans aren't all equally good/effective. For the circumstances, self-immolation couldn't of been the most effective plan.
Martyrdom could have been a route, but not like this.

I think martyrdom is heavily tied to religion for a reason. Can there be a secular motivation to do it? Sure, but I'm evaluating the specific act and circumstances, not just the sacrifice. An atheist could give their life to save someone else out of love, and everyone would understand that.
But giving your life in the hopes that it gets enough attention to stop a bigger event on the other side of the world is frankly not rational and borderline narcissistic, despite the well meaning intentions. You can be pure and an idiot at the same time.

 

[Blayt7hh]

The idea of limiting the good this man did to a very narrowly defined specific set of outcomes is ridiculous and unrealistic too.

It's also really sad that our culture can lose so much love that it can't understand a self-sacrifice like what this man "may" have done.

He has already done more good than you ever will on this topic for instance. Just arguing about it on sherdog...

People that try to do good in the world have to think of it in very small terms. If what I have done even affects one person and makes them live better my effort has been worth it. But there is no doubt even just based on this thread that he's already affected deeply at least three people and made them think and contemplate and come to a deeper place.

You can personally think that isn't worth his life. And you can think he is just plain wrong about Israel... but that really has no bearing on the good that he did and his motivations and his perceptions.

Have you ever seen the fallout following a suicide? I have. It’s not pretty.

I’m now reading that this guy had a wife and kids. His wife is going to carry this scar for the rest of her life and constantly wrestle with the whys. Same with his parents. Same with his kids when they are old enough to understand.

Doesn’t sound so romantically noble to me. Too each their own I guess. Hard to imagine the good outweighing the cost he extracted on his loved ones.

 

[terrapin]

This isn't about justification. Anybody can feel justified to do whatever it is they do according to their own personal code.
I can't tell him that he can't feel justified in doing whatever it is he does according to his own code.

My point is about what makes sense? If I have a problem in front of me, and I drew up 10 different battle plans to solve it, these plans aren't all equally good/effective. For the circumstances, self-immolation couldn't of been the most effective plan.
Martyrdom could have been a route, but not like this.

I think martyrdom is heavily tied to religion for a reason. Can there be a secular motivation to do it? Sure, but I'm evaluating the specific act and circumstances, not just the sacrifice. An atheist could give their life to save someone else out of love, and everyone would understand that.
But giving your life in the hopes that it gets enough attention to stop a bigger event on the other side of the world is frankly not rational and borderline narcissistic, despite the well meaning intentions. You can be pure and an idiot at the same time.

I think you just have trouble relating to a person who has love for a cause that is greater than themselves.

you are in no position whatsoever to evaluate the "good" he did with other "goods"he could have done. that's your job for you... you are barely qualified to do even that. but its not your job for him. there are 7 billion people on the planet. this guy chose this act. there are many other actors doing other things.... you are not qualified to evaluate if what he did was or was not the correct course of action because you cant know what he meant to achieve, what his inner motivations are, and you cannot evaluate the good it will do in the world either.


as a devout Christian i take real issue with you thinking martyrdom should be only the pervue of the religious. a secular person can be motivated by God in a way that is outside of religion and can achieve deep spirituality in this life and share similar levels of self sacrifice and love for the other too. I don't know if this guy had that or not but it is a possibility for certain.


you are basically just judging based on personal criteria and you can't really believe that YOU know enough to do that can you?

I'm genuinely surprised at the level of controversy this act has stirred up and I have to think that most people aside from the deeply contemplative have never given more than an hours thought to martyrdom so what we are mostly experiencing here is a partisan motivated shit storm that has little to do with the subject of martyrdom and a lot more to do with political alignment.

but if his intention was to get people thinking deeply about things he has probably made a dent with some. he has for me for certain.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

I think you just have trouble relating to a person who has love for a cause that is greater than themselves.

you are in no position whatsoever to evaluate the "good" he did with other "goods"he could have done. that's your job for you... you are barely qualified to do even that. but its not your job for him. there are 7 billion people on the planet. this guy chose this act. there are many other actors doing other things.... you are not qualified to evaluate if what he did was or was not the correct course of action because you cant know what he meant to achieve, what his inner motivations are, and you cannot evaluate the good it will do in the world either.


as a devout Christian i take real issue with you thinking martyrdom should be only the pervue of the religious. a secular person can be motivated by God in a way that is outside of religion and can achieve deep spirituality in this life and share similar levels of self sacrifice and love for the other too. I don't know if this guy had that or not but it is a possibility for certain.


you are basically just judging based on personal criteria and you can't really believe that YOU know enough to do that can you?

I'm genuinely surprised at the level of controversy this act has stirred up and I have to think that most people aside from the deeply contemplative have never given more than an hours thought to martyrdom so what we are mostly experiencing here is a partisan motivated shit storm that has little to do with the subject of martyrdom and a lot more to do with political alignment.

but if his intention was to get people thinking deeply about things he has probably made a dent with some. he has for me for certain.

You can be motivated by God outside of religion? care to give an example?

 

[terrapin]

Have you ever seen the fallout following a suicide? I have. It’s not pretty.

I’m now reading that this guy had a wife and kids. His wife is going to carry this scar for the rest of her life and constantly wrestle with the whys. Same with his parents. Same with his kids when they are old enough to understand.

Doesn’t sound so romantically noble to me. Too each their own I guess. Hard to imagine the good outweighing the cost he extracted on his loved ones.

don't pretend there is a logical fallacy if a person changes their mind based on his actions and we can talk. otherwise pony up with a coherent argument on that front.

most of the disciples of Christ also had children and wives. there are times when self sacrifice is the right thing to do. and romantic?... that's not a word I would ever use. that's your word.

you say the family will wrestle with this BUT almost certainly you are only thinking about it from the point of view that he is wrong and that it was a mistake. and that a priori bias influences all your other thoughts about him. but take a couple hours and genuinely think about if from the perspective that he is right and his actions came from deep love for the "other".... with that thought experiment you can see each and every person left behind becoming a better person because of what he did and being inspired by it too.

you must do this thought experiment if you are going to invoke his wife and children and extended family because some of them will SURELY agree with his position on Israel and Palestine, will probably be justified in that thinking by some prominent later historians and will very possibly be moved deeply by what he did.

if you invoke his family you MUST consider these positions.

 

[terrapin]

You can be motivated by God outside of religion? care to give an example?

well god is real... and its in literally every single person. many poets and scientists and philosophers have had intense mystical experience... even peak experience that is nearly identical or actually identical as a saints experience with god.

you don't have to be religious to have a connection with god. you just have to be human.

when I was a kid I would sometimes expense pure blinding white light and feel profound love and joy. i never had a category for what that could be until I became religious as an adult and where I found that experience to be placed within a religious context.

for the most part mystical experience precedes the formation of religion.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

 

[evansusmc2]

No.
Given what he went through, he deserves the respect of being clear about what he chose to die for and in that manner.
He was not mentally ill, he was aghast at what he saw as the military being complicit in war crimes and wanted to take a stand against it.


I agree it wasn't the best way to launch a protest, but he obviously felt powerless to do anything and you can't really disagree with him. He felt this was a way of making a statement that would make an impact and be remembered, like the famous Vietnamese monk self immolation.

Nope…. He was just an idiot. At least he knew what it felt like to be a fiery idiot.

 

[ShadowRun]

Brain washed

 

[tastaylvr]

Have you ever seen the fallout following a suicide? I have. It’s not pretty.

I’m now reading that this guy had a wife and kids. His wife is going to carry this scar for the rest of her life and constantly wrestle with the whys. Same with his parents. Same with his kids when they are old enough to understand.

Doesn’t sound so romantically noble to me. Too each their own I guess. Hard to imagine the good outweighing the cost he extracted on his loved ones.

now imagine the millions dead to US intervention and their gripes

o wait..

 

[Blayt7hh]

don't pretend there is a logical fallacy if a person changes their mind based on his actions and we can talk. otherwise pony up with a coherent argument on that front.

most of the disciples of Christ also had children and wives. there are times when self sacrifice is the right thing to do. and romantic?... that's not a word I would ever use. that's your word.

you say the family will wrestle with this BUT almost certainly you are only thinking about it from the point of view that he is wrong and that it was a mistake. and that a priori bias influences all your other thoughts about him. but take a couple hours and genuinely think about if from the perspective that he is right and his actions came from deep love for the "other".... with that thought experiment you can see each and every person left behind becoming a better person because of what he did and being inspired by it too.

you must do this thought experiment if you are going to invoke his wife and children and extended family because some of them will SURELY agree with his position on Israel and Palestine, will probably be justified in that thinking by some prominent later historians and will very possibly be moved deeply by what he did.

if you invoke his family you MUST consider these positions.

I for the life of me can’t understand why you would be so stupid as to bring up our previous argument. I stated the fallacy and explained to you why it applied. It’s cut and dry and it’s really not a difficult concept to grasp. I’m going to end that one where I ended it last night: you are not educated in logic or philosophy. Stop pretending to be and don’t evoke any of it again.

It’s also getting tedious watching you bandy from one fallacy to the next. Here you’re making a false analogy to the disciples, who were all murdered or put to death. None of them killed themselves. Not that I even care since I’m not Christian and haven’t stated that I value their martyrdom.

Then you’re constantly generalizing everyone else’s reasoning creating entire narratives for the motivation behind their opinions like you just did here with me. You think that what I wrote has anything to do with my, what stance on the conflict? No what I wrote I wrote after learning he had kids which surprised me. What I wrote I wrote because I have seen families deal with the fall out from suicide. I honestly didn’t really give two shits about him killing himself last night before I knew he had a family.

You answered my question without saying it though, which is no you have not seen it’s effects on the family first hand. I know this because you would not write something so naive as “they might come out as better people because of it and be inspired by it”. That statement is coming from a place of deep, deep ignorance. Count yourself lucky. Most people consider suicide a very selfish act because the trauma inflicted on the people left behind.

I know you didn’t consider this. Try this thought experiment: put yourself in his kids shoes and live your life wondering who your dad was and why he chose to leave you behind. Be gee golly you’ll be comforted by the fact that some historians maybe agreed with him. You have romanticized his act. That’s what you’re doing when you say that “place of deep love” bullshit.

 

[Blayt7hh]

now imagine the millions dead to US intervention and their gripes

o wait..

What are you even fucking talking about.

 

[Blayt7hh]

I'm genuinely surprised at the level of controversy this act has stirred up and I have to think that most people aside from the deeply contemplative have never given more than an hours thought to martyrdom so what we are mostly experiencing here is a partisan motivated shit storm that has little to do with the subject of martyrdom and a lot more to do with political alignment.

You also need to stop making generalizations about everyone in the damn world that doesn’t arrive at your conclusions. I’ve seen you do this multiple times where you assign negative qualities and stick people that aren’t you in that camp. This quote I’m capturing you took from a poster that supports Palestine. Like he’s active in the Hamas/Israel supporting Palestine and against Israel right now. And you’ve hypothesized that he doesn’t like this guy suiciding because he had a different political stance.

Wrong. You had no reason to assume that about him. Its this kind of thinking that drives partisanship.

 

[Chad R. Thundercock]

now imagine the millions dead to US intervention and their gripes

o wait..

Around 60 million Christians were slaughtered during the jihadic conquest. Half of the glorious Hindu civilization was annihilated and 80 million Hindus killed. The first Western Buddhists were the Greeks descended from Alexander the Great's army in what is now Afghanistan. Jihad destroyed all of Buddhism along the silk route. About 10 million Buddhists died. The conquest of Buddhism is the practical result of pacifism. Zoroastrianism was eliminated from Persia. The Jews became permanent dhimmis throughout Islam. In Africa over 120 million Christians and animists have died over the last 1400 years of jihad. Approximately 270 million nonbelievers died over the last 1400 years for the glory of political Islam. These are the Tears of Jihad which are not taught in any school."



Say what now?

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Because you only have one shot

Look, if you had one shot or one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted in one moment
Would you capture it or just let it slip?

 

[Osculater]

Look, if you had one shot or one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted in one moment
Would you capture it or just let it slip?

Yo

 

[terrapin]

I for the life of me can’t understand why you would be so stupid as to bring up our previous argument. I stated the fallacy and explained to you why it applied. It’s cut and dry and it’s really not a difficult concept to grasp. I’m going to end that one where I ended it last night: you are not educated in logic or philosophy. Stop pretending to be and don’t evoke any of it again.

It’s also getting tedious watching you bandy from one fallacy to the next. Here you’re making a false analogy to the disciples, who were all murdered or put to death. None of them killed themselves. Not that I even care since I’m not Christian and haven’t stated that I value their martyrdom.

Then you’re constantly generalizing everyone else’s reasoning creating entire narratives for the motivation behind their opinions like you just did here with me. You think that what I wrote has anything to do with my, what stance on the conflict? No what I wrote I wrote after learning he had kids which surprised me. What I wrote I wrote because I have seen families deal with the fall out from suicide. I honestly didn’t really give two shits about him killing himself last night before I knew he had a family.

You answered my question without saying it though, which is no you have not seen it’s effects on the family first hand. I know this because you would not write something so naive as “they might come out as better people because of it and be inspired by it”. That statement is coming from a place of deep, deep ignorance. Count yourself lucky. Most people consider suicide a very selfish act because the trauma inflicted on the people left behind.

I know you didn’t consider this. Try this thought experiment: put yourself in his kids shoes and live your life wondering who your dad was and why he chose to leave you behind. Be gee golly you’ll be comforted by the fact that some historians maybe agreed with him. You have romanticized his act. That’s what you’re doing when you say that “place of deep love” bullshit.

Last night you made an indefensible claim. You claimed that anybody who changed their mind based on this martyrs actions would be committing a logical fallacy. That's an ignorant and ridiculous statement and you failed to back it up because it's impossible to do so and then you pretended victory. I just want everyone who's reading to know that you actually believe that its a logical fallacy to be motivated to change one's position because on this man's actions.

There is a difference between what the disciples did and what this man did but it's not so cut and dry as you think. I said that giving up one's life for a cause is deeply revered in Christianity. Jesus and a number of the disciples had it within their power easily to not be put to death, but they chose death. That's not so far far off from what this man may have done if his motivations are accurate based on what he said.

And while you may not have based your opinions on partisan motivations, it is clear that many here have. In fact, based on the spurious arguments against martyrdom that are being put forth, it's clear that most people have never thought about it once in their lives until this happened. That's very clear to those of us who've given hours of thought to this as a basic spiritual practice.

As to how his family will turn out after growing up? You are the one who's profoundly naive and has insinuated a certain outcome. I haven't. I've been involved in deep spiritual practice for over 30 years and I've known literally hundreds and hundreds of individuals who've experienced deep tragedy and for the most part most of them come out better on the other end. If you don't know that basic fact about life, how can you evaluate what might happen to this man's children and wife?

And remember once again in all of our arguments past and present you are arguing for the certainty of your position and I'm arguing for the possibility of mine and trying to keep the door open for many others. For you, it is a closed book and a closed mind and for me it is an open book and an open mind. That's why you can't understand me because you can't relate.

I think it's clear who's really thinking here and who is just putting out their own personal opinions.