Advice to bring my legs to acceptable levels

[ripskater]

You're not going to have weak abs after heavy squats, deadlifts and presses.

Your abs are not prime movers for those exercises. Squats and deadlifts will heavily work the spinal erectors in the low and mid back (antagonists to the abs). And for bench press, you're laying on a bench, so you will not be getting any significant ab work there either.

 

[TheeFaulted]

Your abs are not prime movers for those exercises. Squats and deadlifts will heavily work the spinal erectors in the low and mid back (antagonists to the abs).

A muscle does not have to be the prime mover in an exercise to benefit from it.

And for bench press, you're laying on a bench, so you will not be getting any significant ab work there either.

No one is talking about bench.

 

[ripskater]

A muscle does not have to be the prime mover in an exercise to benefit from it.

I know. But you will be engaging the low back significantly more than abdominals with squats and deadlifts. So if a person with weak abs does those two things only, it will take their body more out of balance.

 

[Cmart]

I know. But you will be engaging the low back significantly more than abdominals with squats and deadlifts. So if a person with weak abs does those two things only, it will take their body more out of balance.

Squats and deadlifts engage the abs quite a bit.

 

[ripskater]

Squats and deadlifts engage the abs quite a bit.

Not in comparison to the back muscles.

 

[TheeFaulted]

I know. But you will be engaging the low back significantly more than abdominals with squats and deadlifts. So if a person with weak abs does those two things only, it will take their body more out of balance.

Nope.

 

[Cmart]

Not in comparison to the back muscles.

Maybe so. When doing pullups, you're also engaging your back muscles more than your biceps. But you're going to get quite a bit of biceps development from pullups. Just because something isn't the prime mover in an exercise doesn't mean there isn't going to be significant impact. Or that an imbalance will develop.

I don't train abs on squat days. I figure they get enough work.

 

[ripskater]

Maybe so. When doing pullups, you're also engaging your back muscles more than your biceps. But you're going to get quite a bit of biceps development from pullups. Just because something isn't the prime mover in an exercise doesn't mean there isn't going to be significant impact. Or that an imbalance will develop.

I agree. I'm not saying it will always develop an imbalance. I just said if you already have an imbalance that you'll be making that imbalance worse by doing more back dominant exercises like deadlift and squat.

I don't train abs on squat days. I figure they get enough work.

You may not have the scenario I mentioned. And your abs very well may get enough work.

 

[Sano]

You're not going to have weak abs after heavy squats, deadlifts and presses.

Your abs are not prime movers for those exercises. Squats and deadlifts will heavily work the spinal erectors in the low and mid back (antagonists to the abs). And for bench press, you're laying on a bench, so you will not be getting any significant ab work there either.

Both yes and no. Core and abs are so many different things.

A heavy squat and deadlift will certainly work the local stabilizers of the trunk a great amount, like mm. multifidi (spinal segment stabilizers) and the transverse abdominis (intra abdominal pressure). It'll also work some global stabilizers, like the erector spinae (back extension), mostly spinalis, and the inner obliques (pulling the ribcage down), but only some of their functions, or to a certain extent. It wont work the global mobilizers that much, if at all.

The rectus abdominis (stoop over/situp/sixpack muscle), quadratos lumborum (sidebending), parts of the inner and outer obliques (sidebending and rotation) are not worked. Yes, some of them are worked isometrically, but even then they are barely active. Muscles also adapts angle specifc and it wont help their primary function. Not to mention the pressure on the pelvic wall and all that jazz. OBS, Pelvic muscles are important for a lot of things, like herniations and stress incontinence. Anyway!

No amount of squatting or deadlifting will help you achieve something advanced like a hollow hold for time or a front lever, or a human flag. They also don't really help rotation and bending/flexion of the trunk. That said, they are great for stabilizing the trunk. So it's a yes and no.

Ripskater is also right in that they won't inherently fix postural issues, and can even exacerbate them, unless they are cued. It all depends.

 

[TheeFaulted]

No amount of squatting or deadlifting will help you achieve something advanced like a hollow hold for time or a front lever, or a human flag. They also don't really help rotation and bending/flexion of the trunk. That said, they are great for stabilizing the trunk. So it's a yes and no.

No one is making any such claim. No one is saying if you want to be a gymnast or bodyweight trick guy, to spend all your time squatting and deadlifting.

A guy who can squat 250x10 asked if squats alone should be able to bring up his underdeveloped quads/hamstrings/glutes.

A couple of guys said, yes squats should help.

Rispskater suggest running hills instead.

A few more guys suggested squats. One suggested a basic strength training program focused on squats, deadlifts and pressing.

Ripskater said that will cause some people, especially those with weak abs to "get their body out of balance and could cause problems."

I said you can't do heavy squats and deads without a strong core.

 

[Sano]

No one is making any such claim. No one is saying if you want to be a gymnast or bodyweight trick guy, to spend all your time squatting and deadlifting.

A guy who can squat 250x10 asked if squats alone should be able to bring up his underdeveloped quads/hamstrings/glutes.

A couple of guys said, yes squats should help.

Rispskater suggest running hills instead.

A few more guys suggested squats. One suggested a basic strength training program focused on squats, deadlifts and pressing.

Ripskater said that will cause some people, especially those with weak abs to "get their body out of balance and could cause problems."

I said you can't do heavy squats and deads without a strong core.

Yeah I know no one made any claims about gymnastics. It's just to reiterate the point that a strong core for compounds and a strong core for other things are not necessarily the same.

You said that abs don't have to be the prime movers to be worked and that you wont have weak abs after deadlifting and squatting. I'm just saying that it depends on what your definition is, or rather, which muscles and functions you are talking about. It's just to clear up that stabilizing the spine, correcting postural issues and moving the trunk are three seperate things.

Ripskater is also right that if you, say, have an active extension pattern of the lumbar spine causing pain (let's say anterior tilt and increased lumbar lordisis because your spinal erectors are overactice), then doing squats and deadlifts without any corrections in mind might make it worse. Keywoard here is might, because most of the time it doesn't create any problems. What he mean is that an anterior tilt (depending on it's nature) is often accompanied by a weak lower abdomen and overactive lumbar spine.

Usually what's weak abdominally are the lower part of the rectus abdominis muscle and the external obliques, both which pull the pelvis up, and both which are not used much, if at all, in a squat or deadlift. At least without cueing. In turn, the lumbal spinal erectors are worked quite a bit no matter how you cue.

Neuromuscular control (the ability to be aware of and control the positioning of your joints) is really where it's at anyway if you want to fix postural issues.

Anyway, this is going off a tangent. I understand where you are coming from and compounds are awesome!

 

[MoparOrNoCar]

Yeah I know no one made any claims about gymnastics. It's just to reiterate the point that a strong core for compounds and a strong core for other things are not necessarily the same.

You said that abs don't have to be the prime movers to be worked and that you wont have weak abs after deadlifting and squatting. I'm just saying that it depends on what your definition is, or rather, which muscles and functions you are talking about. It's just to clear up that stabilizing the spine, correcting postural issues and moving the trunk are three seperate things.

Ripskater is also right that if you, say, have an active extension pattern of the lumbar spine causing pain (let's say anterior tilt and increased lumbar lordisis because your spinal erectors are overactice), then doing squats and deadlifts without any corrections in mind might make it worse. Keywoard here is might, because most of the time it doesn't create any problems. What he mean is that an anterior tilt (depending on it's nature) is often accompanied by a weak lower abdomen and overactive lumbar spine.

Usually what's weak abdominally are the lower part of the rectus abdominis muscle and the external obliques, both which pull the pelvis up, and both which are not used much, if at all, in a squat or deadlift. At least without cueing. In turn, the lumbal spinal erectors are worked quite a bit no matter how you cue.

Neuromuscular control (the ability to be aware of and control the positioning of your joints) is really where it's at anyway if you want to fix postural issues.

Anyway, this is going off a tangent. I understand where you are coming from and compounds are awesome!

What's the best way to go about fixing an anterior tilt? I think I have it about as bad as you can get it. I've been trying to do abs (mainly upper) and squats along with leg curls to strengthen the glutes and hamstrings but I don't seem to be getting any results at all.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Sano actually brings up a good point the biggest is that those lifts dont work the quadratus lumborium....it wont kill anybody to do some planks or weighted situps but for a general strength trainee they absolutely arent even necessary....if you can squat 405 you have a strong enough "core" for most things

 

[Sano]

What's the best way to go about fixing an anterior tilt? I think I have it about as bad as you can get it. I've been trying to do abs (mainly upper) and squats along with leg curls to strengthen the glutes and hamstrings but I don't seem to be getting any results at all.

A late response here.

It depends on what's causing it. Whether your problem is functional (tight and loose muscles, motor control issues) or structural (anatomy), and what's giving you the biggest issues. There are some standard things that are applicable to the overwhelming majority of cases of anterior pelvic tilting.

Usually the problem is tied in with lower cross syndrome. Meaning; elongated and/or overactive hamstrings, weak glutes, weak abs (particularly the ones that attach at the pelvis, but really also the stabilizers), increased lordosis/lower back arch (can be a tight lower back muscles, but could just be a posture pattern) and tight/shortened hip flexors which sometimes crossed over into tight quads. That's usually the basics. Whether the biggest factor is tightness, weakness or a stability problem is hard to say and most of the time it's a combination. Without assessing you individually, there are some good exercises out there.

Leg curl is a good exercise and you should keep doing it, but it wont address your anterior tilt. Training the "upper" abs wont necessarily do much either. Squats can help, but it depends on cueing. There are many exercises you can do, but I would do these:

Dynamic stability:

Just play around with your pelvic position a little like in the vid here. Feel it out. Play around with finding a good neutral position as well, perhaps look in a mirror:


Maybe a few cat/cow reps:


And end with childs pose for a few deep breaths:

Stretching:

Your hip flexors. This video perfectly illustrates the right way to do it:


When you get better at controlling your pelvis and keeping your tailbone tucked in and squeezing your glutes, then you could try this variation down the road, but it's optional. Keep in mind the same cues:


Piriformes stretch against wall:



Activation/Strenghtening:

You can use the clam and reverse clam for glut med activation:


Keep the knees bend and hips at a 45 degree angle as shown. Stabilise your hips and pelvis and don't let it move when you do the exercises.

Glute Bridges:

You can also use a band around your knees while doing it, or squeezing a ball between your knees while doing it to active the adductors and muscles of the pelvic floor.

When that is too easy, you can do some single leg ones:

The whole point is trying to think about using the glutes. Try lifting the ball of your feet off the ground and point your toes at yourself like in the picture and video. When doing the single leg variation, try bending the leg that's in the air, point your toes at yourself there as well and keep it close to your chest. That will give more room for a posterior tilt and better glute squeeze.

Front plank:

Keep it nice and straight. Tuck the tailbone under you/create a slight posterior tilt while squeezing the glutes when holding it. This is important for addressing your anterior tilt.

When it gets too easy, you can move on to this progression:


Lower ab work:

Just focus on the bend leg variations she's showing and use the cues. Keep your lower back pressed into the ground during the exercises.


Obviously this is prehab/rehab stuff. So, I would probably do something like this before your regular workout:

Standing dynamic drill for a few reps.
Cat/cow for a few reps and then Childs Pose for a few breaths.
Lunge stretch untill a release and relaxation is felt one time on each leg.
Clam for 12-15 reps, reverse clam for 12-15 reps, repeat on the other side.
Glute bridge or single leg progression for 12-15 reps, feel that glute squeeze.
Front plank with glute squeeze for X seconds, improve over time.
Both variations of the bend leg ab exercises for some reps untill you find it hard to keep lower back pressed against the floor.
- for 1-2 sets.

It doesn't have to take longer than 15 minutes. Just do it consistently.

Keep doing your squats, deadlifts, romanian deadlifts or what you're doing and remember to squeeze the glutes at the top. Try to keep your lower back stable. You could end your workout with the piriformes stretch against a wall if you want. It feels good. Practice hip hinging properly, maybe upload a video of your squat and deadlift technique for form correction.

Let me know if it helps in a few weeks.

BONUS:

- Find a way to stay active without pain, that is key no matter what.

- Lying down like this, with palms up instead (head support optional) for extended periods of time might also help you out and alleviate some of the lower back pain, especially if you're having trouble with extension (which is what ATP is). Key is belly breathing and relaxing into it:

 

[MoparOrNoCar]

A late response here.

It depends on what's causing it. Whether your problem is functional (tight and loose muscles, motor control issues) or structural (anatomy), and what's giving you the biggest issues. There are some standard things that are applicable to the overwhelming majority of cases of anterior pelvic tilting.

Usually the problem is tied in with lower cross syndrome. Meaning; elongated and/or overactive hamstrings, weak glutes, weak abs (particularly the ones that attach at the pelvis, but really also the stabilizers), increased lordosis/lower back arch (can be a tight lower back muscles, but could just be a posture pattern) and tight/shortened hip flexors which sometimes crossed over into tight quads. That's usually the basics. Whether the biggest factor is tightness, weakness or a stability problem is hard to say and most of the time it's a combination. Without assessing you individually, there are some good exercises out there.

Leg curl is a good exercise and you should keep doing it, but it wont address your anterior tilt. Training the "upper" abs wont necessarily do much either. Squats can help, but it depends on cueing. There are many exercises you can do, but I would do these:

Dynamic stability:

Just play around with your pelvic position a little like in the vid here. Feel it out. Play around with finding a good neutral position as well, perhaps look in a mirror:


Maybe a few cat/cow reps:


And end with childs pose for a few deep breaths:

Stretching:

Your hip flexors. This video perfectly illustrates the right way to do it:


When you get better at controlling your pelvis and keeping your tailbone tucked in and squeezing your glutes, then you could try this variation down the road. Keep in mind the same cues:


Piriformes stretch against wall:



Activation/Strenghtening:

You can use the clam and reverse clam for glut med activation:


Keep the knees bend and hips at a 45 degree angle as shown. Stabilise your hips and pelvis and don't let it move when you do the exercises.

Glute Bridges:

You can also use a band around your knees while doing it, or squeezing a ball between your knees while doing it to active the adductors and muscles of the pelvic floor.

When that is too easy, you can do some single leg ones:

The whole point is trying to think about using the glutes. Try lifting the ball of your feet off the ground and point your toes at yourself like in the picture and video. When doing the single leg variation, try bending the leg that's in the air, point your toes at yourself there as well and keep it close to your chest. That will give more room for a posterior tilt and better glute squeeze.

Front plank:

Keep it nice and straight. Tuck the tailbone under you/create a slight posterior tilt while squeezing the glutes when holding it. This is important for addressing your anterior tilt.

When it gets too easy, you can move on to this progression:


Lower ab work:

Just focus on the bend leg variations she's showing and use the cues. Keep your lower back pressed into the ground during the exercises.

This bend leg progression can also be used when you get more comfortable with the movement, but that's further down the road. It's challenging to do correctly:



Obviously this is prehab/rehab stuff. So, I would probably do something like this before your regular workout:

Standing dynamic drill for a few reps.
Cat/cow for a few reps and then Childs Pose for a few breaths.
Lunge stretch untill a release and relaxation is felt one time on each leg.
Clam for 12-20 reps, reverse clam for 12-20 reps, repeat on the other side.
Glute bridge or single leg progression for 12-20 reps, feel that glute squeeze.
Front plank with glute squeeze for X seconds, improve over time.
Both variations of the bend leg ab exercises for some reps untill you find it hard to keep lower back pressed against the floor.
- for 1-2 sets.

It doesn't have to take longer than 15 minutes. Just do it consistently.

Keep doing your squats, deadlifts, romanian deadlifts or what you're doing and you could end your workout with the piriformes stretch against a wall if you want. It feels good. Practice hip hinging properly, maybe upload a video of your squat and deadlift technique for form correction.

Let me know if it helps in a few weeks.

Wow! Thank you so much man. I should seriously send you money for all that. I've been to the doctors a few times for it and they haven't been much help other than telling me that I'm the least flexible person they've ever seen. I've tried doing other stretches for anterior pelvic tilt and they didn't really do much for me. My dad passed away when I was younger but I clearly remember him having the same issue too. I'm going to go over all of this tonight and start a regimen tomorrow. Thanks again man.

 

[Sano]

Wow! Thank you so much man. I should seriously send you money for all that. I've been to the doctors a few times for it and they haven't been much help other than telling me that I'm the least flexible person they've ever seen. I've tried doing other stretches for anterior pelvic tilt and they didn't really do much for me. My dad passed away when I was younger but I clearly remember him having the same issue too. I'm going to go over all of this tonight and start a regimen tomorrow. Thanks again man.

Hehe, no worries man.

You went to doctors for your anterior tilt? Do you experience any pain or discomfort? Did they suggest any pathology or did they just say you're "stiff"? What sports have you played btw, if any?

With these exercises it's about two thing, quality and consistency. I specificly picked videos that explained most of it well and tried to add some comments as well with cues.

Let me know how if you have any questions!

 

[jonander50]

Don't limit yourself to squats, add variety. There are lots of exercises to create a good leg strength foundation, like weighted split jumps, front jumps pistol squats.. As a fighter you don't want to accustome to a specific exercise, to evade overtraining in those fibers and to work all the strength pathways you can.

 

[MoparOrNoCar]

Hehe, no worries man.

You went to doctors for your anterior tilt? Do you experience any pain or discomfort? Did they suggest any pathology or did they just say you're "stiff"? What sports have you played btw, if any?

With these exercises it's about two thing, quality and consistency. I specificly picked videos that explained most of it well and tried to add some comments as well with cues.

Let me know how if you have any questions!

I went for a multitude of reasons. Bad knees (can't run more than about 1/4 mile without them feeling like they're pulling apart on the inside) and just my all around awkward posture. I had no idea what an anterior tilt was at the time. The physical therapist gave me some stretches to do that didn't help much and that was about it. His only diagnosis was that I was the lest flexible person he's ever seen. He never diagnosed me with an anterior tilt but after doing my own research after that, I learned that I have it about as bad as you can get it.

I've never played sports on any teams. Just basketball, baseball or touch football with friends here and there.

I get a decent amount of lower back pain. It's especially difficult to do core without using machines. If I'm just lying on the ground while trying to do sit ups or any other variations of them, my lower back starts to bug the hell out of me. Regular sit ups are nearly impossible. I can only do a few before I just can't do them anymore. I guess it's sort of like trying to bench press with the bar over the top of your forehead instead of over your chest. It's like I'm fighting the hell out of my own body just to be able to do a simple sit up since my back is curved. Or if I lay on the ground flat and just try to lift my legs up a bit, it ends up hurting my back very quickly.

 

[Sano]

I went for a multitude of reasons. Bad knees (can't run more than about 1/4 mile without them feeling like they're pulling apart on the inside) and just my all around awkward posture. I had no idea what an anterior tilt was at the time. The physical therapist gave me some stretches to do that didn't help much and that was about it. His only diagnosis was that I was the lest flexible person he's ever seen. He never diagnosed me with an anterior tilt but after doing my own research after that, I learned that I have it about as bad as you can get it.

I've never played sports on any teams. Just basketball, baseball or touch football with friends here and there.

I get a decent amount of lower back pain. It's especially difficult to do core without using machines. If I'm just lying on the ground while trying to do sit ups or any other variations of them, my lower back starts to bug the hell out of me. Regular sit ups are nearly impossible. I can only do a few before I just can't do them anymore. I guess it's sort of like trying to bench press with the bar over the top of your forehead instead of over your chest. It's like I'm fighting the hell out of my own body just to be able to do a simple sit up since my back is curved. Or if I lay on the ground flat and just try to lift my legs up a bit, it ends up hurting my back very quickly.

Hmm! I was just about to ask if you had any lower back pain. Have you noticed if it's worse when standing and walking, or when you're sitting down? How's your legs btw, are they completely straight and locked/over extended when you stand still, or is there a little bending at the knees going on? Just in your natural standing position.

Yeah well, that's why invidual, hands on treatment is the best. The reason you get pain in your lower back doing any kind of ab work might be because you are not able to press your lower back into the floor while doing them and you are arching. Or they might just not be right for you at this time. It's hard to tell without being there. The ones in the video with bent legs are about as gentle as any ab exercise can be, and the tip she gives with a towel under your lower back and checking if you can pull it out is a good one. It's more about controlling the pelvis. Don't overdo them, just do a few reps and work your way up.

I'm always really disappointed when I hear a physio just giving a few stretching, it not working, and then that's that. That's not the kind of physio I want to be.

You should post a video of your squat and deadlift as well at some point. Getting that tilt under control and strenghtening your glutes might help you out a lot!

 

[Easto]

High rep squats made my legs grow like crazy. I would do a minimum of 15 reps per set. It's brutally tough but I found this was great for leg growth and strength.