All Time GOAT poll

[The Siege]

In Denmark we have a saying - "Thieves think everyone steals" *shrug*

If everyone is cheating, and there is a plethora of tainted supplements out there, I find it strange that more people do not pop.

I find it more strange that so FEW fighters pop. You are telling me that Merab has 25 minutes of strenuous GRAPPLING cardio and looks ready to go another 25 minutes naturally? Or guys like Costa, Usman, and the like having a shit ton of muscles but the cardio to fight for 15 - 25 minutes with no issues?

I can be swayed either way, but I just think there is too much on the line for athletes to ignore one of the easiest ways to augment their performances.

 

[Lee Danger]

Don't forget when Buffon acted like he saved a clear goal by Muntari in Juventus vs Milan back in the early 2010s but I suppose Buffon still goat Keeper even as a proven cheater cause those rules only apply when you dont like the guy in question.

well, Peruzzi did the same in 98 in Juventus - Empoli... btw in 97-98 they litterally robbed the entire season but... "it's normal" (Kenny Florian)

 

[blocnoir]

Im not saying that the UFC isnt a joke, for more reasons than the one you listed, or that I have definitive proof that those players you listed are doping.

Paulo Costa, Kamaru Usman, DDP, and a whole host of suspect athletes never popped. Is that because of them not using PEDs or maybe because of the sophistication of methods used to bypass testing?

Obviously, it's innocent until proven guilty. I am not arguing to have them suspended or banned or whatever.

But the debate is: Jon Jones being called a GOAT, even though he pissed hot thrice. Which is impossible to me. As IMO, a GOAT (à la list of names I made in a previous post concerning football) has always been officially clean. (officially as in, no failed drug tests).

 

[blocnoir]

well, Peruzzi did the same in 98 in Juventus - Empoli... btw in 97-98 they litterally robbed the entire season but... "it's normal" (Kenny Florian)

off-topic

 

[GreenGorilla]

well, Peruzzi did the same in 98 in Juventus - Empoli... btw in 97-98 they litterally robbed the entire season but... "it's normal" (Kenny Florian)

Just Rubentus things

I did. But what he's saying is shit.

There is no subjectivity: Jones failed three drug tests. He's a cheater, and should never be called the GOAT. That's my point as someone who likes MMA as a sport, a serious, safe sport, where the cheaters get what they deserve. Not have their dicks sucked by the company's president in all promos they made about him.

Nobody should be called GOAT cause it is fucking goofy is the point that seems to slip your mind.

But I am sure you will win this very serious discussion about a completely made up title like GOAT in a sport where only the result matter in the end.

Have fun.

 

[blocnoir]

Just Rubentus things

Nobody should be called GOAT cause it is fucking goofy is the point that seems to slip your mind.

But I am sure you will win this very serious discussion about a completely made up title like GOAT in a sport where only the result matter in the end.

Have fun.

What's the name of the girl ?

 

[Mike]

Is it really cheating when there is a 99% all of your opponents are also using them?

I would be fine if the safeguards around them were actually stringent and weren't just glorified IQ tests, but if I'm an elite fighter with a ton of money and glory on the line, no way would I let my opponents have the edge just because I want to be honorable. Unfortunately, that is the system today.

This goes for all sports at the elite level.

See 99% is such a gross exaggeration. It doesn't help your guys case when you do this. Just say other notable names have popped, and it's reasonable to assume there are guys that haven't popped that are cheating.

But just saying everyone is cheating sounds kinda silly when most guys never fail a test in their entire career, much less multiple failures.

 

[Oddmonster]

Thats interesting. Is there an actual study or a more detailed review available?

Sure.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265175366_Prevalence_of_Doping_Use_in_Elite_Sports_A_Review_of_Numbers_and_Methods

 

[Oddmonster]

I can guarantee you that all three Jones brothers have been on the juice since highschool at least. That shit starts in highschool football and locker rooms. Even 20 years ago, I was offered roids by my coach to "fill out faster" lol. Good post.

Oh yeah, I am 100% sure of that too. I have stated that multiple times on these boards.

 

[Oddmonster]

I find it more strange that so FEW fighters pop. You are telling me that Merab has 25 minutes of strenuous GRAPPLING cardio and looks ready to go another 25 minutes naturally? Or guys like Costa, Usman, and the like having a shit ton of muscles but the cardio to fight for 15 - 25 minutes with no issues?

I can be swayed either way, but I just think there is too much on the line for athletes to ignore one of the easiest ways to augment their performances.

I agree - I said I am surprised more athletes don't pop, you say you are surprised so few pop. Sorta same-same

 

[WoozyFailGuy]

That's perfectly ok. I don't have this type of hangup because I believe they all cheat.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own."

 

[Mike]

"I reject your reality and substitute my own."

You really see this with any competitive endeavor regardless of level. People that cut corners assume everyone else thinks the way that they do.

 

[HavokHarmon]

There is a difference between accidents happening once in a while, and a fighter eyepoking in every fight, often several times, and then admitting he does it on purpose.

And yes, I agree- you could say you can't draw a straight line between Jones and that change. Just as you cant draw a straight line between Hackneys nut shots leading to no nut shots rule, and the same with Tank.

I think you forget how much everyone, from other fighters, to commentators, to journalists, was talking about Jon and his eye pokes.

"As Dominick Reyes was in the middle of a sparring session with one of his training partners as he prepared for a showdown with Jon Jones at UFC 247, he accidentally got an eye poke during one of the exchanges.

Immediately, Reyes’ training partner paused, apologized and asked if Reyes was OK to continue. Without hesitation, the 30-year-old light heavyweight contender put up his gloves and moved forward to finish the round.

“I said just keep going, it’s training, we’ve got to get ready for this guy,” Reyes relayed when speaking to MMA Fighting."

Nope. The two examples you cited are examples of rule changes caused by individual fighters. This doesn’t qualify. In order to qualify it would require:
1) An event catalyst
2) A timeline that clearly follows that event

You don’t have that here, ergo it does not qualify.

 

[WoozyFailGuy]

Nope. The two examples you cited are examples of rule changes caused by individual fighters. This doesn’t qualify. In order to qualify it would require:
1) An event catalyst
2) A timeline that clearly follows that event

You don’t have that here, ergo it does not qualify.

The 5 minute recovery time for eyepokes was made directly as a result of O'Malley vs Munoz.

The hand extended with fingers towards eyes being changed was directly a result of Jon Jones after he poked Glover, Rashad, DC, Rampage, and Gustaffson. Rampage and Mir both agree on this. It is absolute and utter cope to pretend that they didn't change the literal shape of the glove and the rule exclusively because Jon was abusing it. He even felt the need to cheat against Gusmao by low blowing him over and over lmao. There is a longer list of fighters he's fouled than hasn't fouled.
He's admitted to it and laughed about it, it isn't a controversial topic and only the most veritable of nuthuggers would defend Jon on this.

You really see this with any competitive endeavor regardless of level. People that cut corners assume everyone else thinks the way that they do.

Yes, it really is ubiquitous in competition. I coached a counter strike team back in the day and our star player was accused of cheating. This was normal in pubs or even scrims with worse teams, but not in actual tournament matches. The person/team that accused him accused others as well at another point in the tournament and were later DQ'd for cheating themselves.

 

[HavokHarmon]

The 5 minute recovery time for eyepokes was made directly as a result of O'Malley vs Munoz.

The hand extended with fingers towards eyes being changed was directly a result of Jon Jones after he poked Glover, Rashad, DC, Rampage, and Gustaffson. Rampage and Mir both agree on this. It is absolute and utter cope to pretend that they didn't change the literal shape of the glove and the rule exclusively because Jon was abusing it. He even felt the need to cheat against Gusmao by low blowing him over and over lmao. There is a longer list of fighters he's fouled than hasn't fouled.
He's admitted to it and laughed about it, it isn't a controversial topic and only the most veritable of nuthuggers would defend Jon on this.






Yes, it really is ubiquitous in competition. I coached a counter strike team back in the day and our star player was accused of cheating. This was normal in pubs or even scrims with worse teams, but not in actual tournament matches. The person/team that accused him accused others as well at another point in the tournament and were later DQ'd for cheating themselves.

lmao Jackson-DC is 2011-2017. Then 6 years later they change the gloves and it’s because of Jones? I guess since Mir and Page said it that means I can completely ignore the timeline lol

I’m just waiting for the real trolls to show up and say that it was changed due to Chucks eye pokes.

 

[Oddmonster]

Nope. The two examples you cited are examples of rule changes caused by individual fighters. This doesn’t qualify. In order to qualify it would require:
1) An event catalyst
2) A timeline that clearly follows that event

You don’t have that here, ergo it does not qualify.

Well, we believe Hackney and Tank are the reason for the rule change - we don't know they were the reason. We believe it because they did something, and then the rules were changed to prevent it from happening again.
Just like with Jon. The catalyst was Jon admitting he was doing it on purpose. The thing is, as you say yourself - accidents happen. But when one of the biggest stars in the sport admits he is doing it on purpose, that will make people pay attention.


I would say there is just as good a reason to believe Hackney and Tank were the reason for rule changes, as there is to believe Jon were the reason for the rule change. We have no "proof" of either. At the same time, we all know why the rules were changed.

I am not sure - are you a Jon fan defending Jon, or do you simply not believe Jon was the reason for the rule change?

 

[mixmastermo]

Jon’s PED usage is such a double edged sword. Even DC said that he was so talented, he didn’t need to take PED. If Jon had just been more dedicated to living a quieter life, he would have been able to perform to his PED usage standards. The PED’s allowed him to live the high life and fight at his peak. Unfortunately though, he took them. And now forever has the black mark on his career. The mental instability of guys like jones or mike Tyson creates the biggest “what if?” Guys who are so talented, that if they were able to have the mental strength of someone like khabib. It wouldn’t even be a question of who the goat is. But I guess that’s why the GOAT conversation is so vast.

100% agreed. I followed him earlier in his career and the talent was undeniable. He's still one of the best to ever do it but he should have just stayed out of the news/controversy and there would have been no question.

 

[WoozyFailGuy]

lmao Jackson-DC is 2011-2017. Then 6 years later they change the gloves and it’s because of Jones? I guess since Mir and Page said it that means I can completely ignore the timeline lol

I’m just waiting for the real trolls to show up and say that it was changed due to Chucks eye pokes.

It was a multi year issue that multiple fighters complained to the UFC about lol.
It wasn't even an "open secret", it was just a fact that Jon Jones was using the lack of point deductions and the lack of a rule against his fingers being straight out like a rake in people corneas lol. That's a well documented fact.

In a post-fight interview with Ariel Helwani directly after UFC 172, company president Dana White was asked about Jones' eye pokes. The champion would use his reach and lean in with his lead arm, putting his entire hand in his opponent's face. In doing so, it allowed Jones' fingers to smear through the eyes on several occasions.

White wasn't too please with the rangy technique:

"We've got to stop that stuff. The openings of the hands and putting the hands on the face are something bad, but it happens with guys who have reach. They do that a lot."

Why did it take so long for the gloves? Because the UFC is a corporation that wants to own the patent and design outright of visible in ring combat gear. The initial gloves the UFC developed were manufactured by Juana Gloves. The design was based on Harbinger heavy bag gloves with the thumb sleeve and top knuckles cut off. The Harbinger gloves were based on older Kempo gloves like the ones you see Bruce Lee using here.


Better MMA gloves are around, and have been around far before 2017. The issue is that the UFC didn't own them outright, so they didn't want to use them. Simple as. PRIDE had better gloves. Trevor Whittman made better gloves.

 

[Domitian]

"I reject your reality and substitute my own."

It's a subjective topic. It's not like I'm the only person who holds that opinion. I'm not trying to convince anyone of Jon being GOAT.

 

[WoozyFailGuy]

It's a subjective topic. It's not like I'm the only person who holds that opinion. I'm not trying to convince anyone of Jon being GOAT.

They all cheat is as farcical as none of them cheat.