American Jiu-Jitsu

[Rod1]

Well, they didn't really renamed it. But about the change, there was a need for it. It was 1914 and there was not much around. Now we already have Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, Sambo, Submission Grappling, do we really need another? Answer is: Jake Shields (and his sheep) does.

LOL?

Judo exists since 1882, and all judokas called it judo, it was japanese inmigrants which called it jiujitsu, wrestling exists since ancient times as well submission grappling, even if we don't go ancient catch existed by that time.

Also you talk as if BJJ as we know today was invented in 1914, it was not, not until recently that it became what it is, just watch how Royce fights or the first mundials. It looks exactly like judo newaza, so clearly it was competition what makes the technique differs, and that happened in the last 20 years. But BJJ has existed for more time, so really its not about difference in techniques, or competition, its about difference in mentality and training approach.

If we use that criteria that you need own rules and own techniques, then we could argue against the legitimacy of BJJ itself.

 

[mauasci]

LOL, if it never uses a Gi and has no belts how can it be jiu jitsu? It's just submission grappling and FILA already has that covered. :icon_chee
I also think this is just an excuse to slap an American flag on the most dominant martial art at the moment and call it an American product. But not going to work. BJJ already has the hold on the grappling world (no pun intended) or other arts like Sambo and Judo which are also around for a long time would have surpassed BJJ in popularity but they didn't. BJJ made grappling mainstream.

American jiu jitsu, LOL, call it American wrestling. But they already have that too. LMFAO.:icon_lol:

 

[knoxpk]

LOL?

Judo exists since 1882, and all judokas called it judo, it was japanese inmigrants which called it jiujitsu, wrestling exists since ancient times as well submission grappling, even if we don't go ancient catch existed by that time.

Also you talk as if BJJ as we know today was invented in 1914, it was not, not until recently that it became what it is, just watch how Royce fights or the first mundials. It looks exactly like judo newaza, so clearly it was competition what makes the technique differs, and that happened in the last 20 years. But BJJ has existed for more time, so really its not about difference in techniques, or competition, its about difference in mentality and training approach.

If we use that criteria that you need own rules and own techniques, then we could argue against the legitimacy of BJJ itself.

Oh never mind...

 

[knoxpk]

American Jiu-Jitsu? WTF is that? Jiu-Jitsu which emphasizes a top game? Oh, you mean like Carlson Gracie who has ALWAYS given priority for top game in BJJ and all his students play the top game? Or is AJJ just a rip off of Luta-Livre?




.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/takedowns-bjj-1409367/

 

[Auspex]

I also think this is just an excuse to slap an American flag on the most dominant martial art at the moment and call it an American product.

Just for grins....

BJJ is the most dominant martial art in what way? in MMA? in BJJ? Submission grappling?

If were talking just number of practictioners, clubs, etc globally...then wrestling and Judo KILL bjj in that regards.

If were talking about winners in mma and bjj contests, well teh HUGE majority of wrestlers and judoka don't give two shits about bjj/sub grap comps. Just the truth. Not personally knocking them, but if you walk into any Judo or wrestling club and ask what they think, they'll usually show you the door. Not necessarily close mindedness, well in come cases it is, but a difference in strategy and philosophy that doesn't mend well with some.

So calling it the most dominant martial art in the world is just to broad a statement.

 

[knoxpk]

Just for grins....

BJJ is the most dominant martial art in what way? in MMA? in BJJ? Submission grappling?

If were talking just number of practictioners, clubs, etc globally...then wrestling and Judo KILL bjj in that regards.

If were talking about winners in mma and bjj contests, well teh HUGE majority of wrestlers and judoka don't give two shits about bjj/sub grap comps. Just the truth. Not personally knocking them, but if you walk into any Judo or wrestling club and ask what they think, they'll usually show you the door. Not necessarily close mindedness, well in come cases it is, but a difference in strategy and philosophy that doesn't mend well with some.

So calling it the most dominant martial art in the world is just to broad a statement.

And even with that the wrestlers a judoka who do show up usually do very well.

 

[Auspex]

HOLY FUCKIN SHIT I GOT IT!!!

We keep telling ourselves that Jake has to do something different...well I got it.

Take every effing technique and give it a completely meaningless name. The Kimura can now be the Jakebert, the Americana can be the High Fiving Whiteguy, the mata laeo can be...Shit, bring some ideas! I can't be the only brain in here...

On the real though...For serious think about. Everyone would be like, "never heard of the high fiving white guy, where'd you learn that move?"

BOOYAH Achieved

 

[Auspex]

And just for those that think I'm joking. I feel real positive this will spread like wildfire with catchy names.

And because this idea is mine, I'd like the Auspex to be the new name for the D'arce. You can call your move now...I'll compile a list and send the demands to CashBill, who hopefully will deliver it to Jake. Who, hopefully, will not punch CB in the mouth out of excitement for this idea.

 

[Rod1]

And even with that the wrestlers a judoka who do show up usually do very well.

Not even in MMA anymore, while groundwork defense is a must, groundwork offense is not.

To put it into perspective, a wrestler doesn't needs BJJ to win, he needs to learn how to defend against BJJ, yes, but he doesn't needs to train submissions of complex sweeps, he just needs to defend. Some people may argue that training defense against subs its training BJJ but that's like saying that Crocop is an amazing wrestler because of his sprawl.

In contrast BJJ practitioners NEED to learn how to wrestler offensively, because they need to take the fight to the ground, no matter how elite you are in BJJ, if you cant take the fight where you want you are dead as all fights are standing, just looking at Galvao fight gives you all you need to know.

Now would Jake Shields lose to Galvao on a grappling match? i bet he will, but Jake Shield was Strikeforce champ.

Another thing to put the nails in the coffin, is the "we also train X" or "Y exists in BJJ, look at former fighter", but you can make the same argument with judo vs bJJ,

 

[lechien]

Some of John's rank and certifications
American Jiu Jitsu: 4th Degree Black Belt
Japanese Kokusai Jiu Jitsu Renme: 2nd Degree Black Belt
Alliance Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (Professor Roni Cardoso): Purple Belt
Certified Fitness Trainer (I.S.S.A.)
Certified Martial Arts Specialist (The Cooper Institute of Aerobic Research)
Certified Martial Arts Instructor (American Jiu Jitsu Centers Practitioner's Federation)
Certified Martial Arts Instructor (American Council of Martial Arts)
Classified handgun competitor in Practical Shooting through USPSA/IPSC with extensive training in modern firearms and shooter safety.

 

[Auspex]

.

tbh, I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Just that there is an AJJ reference? Implying that it already exists and Shields shoulda done some naming homework? Either way, I want a montage of pics like that with me in it. I'd have that shizzle on a poster on my wall.

 

[lechien]

With over 20 years of experience, Sensei Dan O'Donnell is a 4th dan Renshi Black Belt in American Jiu-Jitsu, and a 1st dan Black Belt Japanese Kokusai Jiu-Jitsu Renme under Grandmaster Shoto Tanemura. He is also very experienced in Iaido (traditional Samurai swordsmanship), Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (Fabio Gurgel, Roni Cardoso), and ecrima/arnis.

Sensei Dan, who works as an engineer, started teaching his two children at AJJC at a very young age. His warm personality, wealth of technique, and incredible patience make him a fantastic teacher.

 

[Auspex]

lechien, subtle hints fly right over my head.

Spell it out or I can't play along.

Because I thought I knew what you were referencing, but you didn't say, "yes, Mike, that's exactly what I meant", you just said something else....

such as:

AJA - Home Page

 

[knoxpk]

Not even in MMA anymore, while groundwork defense is a must, groundwork offense is not.

To put it into perspective, a wrestler doesn't needs BJJ to win, he needs to learn how to defend against BJJ, yes, but he doesn't needs to train submissions of complex sweeps, he just needs to defend. Some people may argue that training defense against subs its training BJJ but that's like saying that Crocop is an amazing wrestler because of his sprawl.

In contrast BJJ practitioners NEED to learn how to wrestler offensively, because they need to take the fight to the ground, no matter how elite you are in BJJ, if you cant take the fight where you want you are dead as all fights are standing, just looking at Galvao fight gives you all you need to know.

Now would Jake Shields lose to Galvao on a grappling match? i bet he will, but Jake Shield was Strikeforce champ.

Another thing to put the nails in the coffin, is the "we also train X" or "Y exists in BJJ, look at former fighter", but you can make the same argument with judo vs bJJ,

excellent point! Find the weakness and exploit it. How long did Lidell make a living on guys that sucked at TD's?

 

[tap21]

I am guessing that Rado = Radek from the old subfighter boards.

No surprise to see that he is not a proponent of the AJJ nomenclature/idea.



This battle has been going on for a long time before Shields' AJJ concept became a topic of discussion.

I hear BJJ guys all the time arguing that if you don't train in the gi you shouldn't have rank as a BJJ practitioner. But, then when someone decides to call it something else, they say, "no that's just BJJ."

Either no-gi grappling is BJJ or it isn't, but you can't have it both ways.

I think a day may come when they will wish they had just embraced the no-gi guys and invited them into their ranks instead of letting the number of no-gi guys swell outside the BJJ umbrella.

 

[joe90210]

I am guessing that Rado = Radek from the old subfighter boards.

No surprise to see that he is not a proponent of the AJJ nomenclature/idea.



This battle has been going on for a long time before Shields' AJJ concept became a topic of discussion.

I hear BJJ guys all the time arguing that if you don't train in the gi you shouldn't have rank as a BJJ practitioner. But, then when someone decides to call it something else, they say, "no that's just BJJ."

Either no-gi grappling is BJJ or it isn't, but you can't have it both ways.

I think a day may come when they will wish they had just embraced the no-gi guys and invited them into their ranks instead of letting the number of no-gi guys swell outside the BJJ umbrella.

how is that having it both ways? you cam still train BJJ without the gi, the issue of ranking comes up because you'll still have a large part of BJJ missing from your arsenal, how can you advance in BJJ rank if you don't know how to use gi grip, how to do sweeps with the gi, collar chokes, etc.

 

[tap21]

how is that having it both ways? you cam still train BJJ without the gi, the issue of ranking comes up because you'll still have a large part of BJJ missing from your arsenal, how can you advance in BJJ rank if you don't know how to use gi grip, how to do sweeps with the gi, collar chokes, etc.

Exactly. You regard use of the gi as integral to rank in BJJ. That's fine.

But, then if a guy wants nothing to do with the gi and wants to call his style something other than BJJ, you shouldn't object.

If they are not good enough for rank in your system, then they should be able to organize their own system, right?

 

[fourfif**]

Well, they didn't really renamed it. But about the change, there was a need for it. It was 1914 and there was not much around. Now we already have Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, Sambo, Submission Grappling, do we really need another? Answer is: Jake Shields (and his sheep) does.

I'm a sheep? LOL look ho.... don't call me a sheep if you don't want me to call you a bitch.

Exactly. You regard use of the gi as integral to rank in BJJ. That's fine.

But, then if a guy wants nothing to do with the gi and wants to call his style something other than BJJ, you shouldn't object.

If they are not good enough for rank in your system, then they should be able to organize their own system, right?

Exactly. And how intergral are takedowns in the majority of BJJ gyms? Most places its like 1/100th of the time you spend drilling and working takedowns. And please give me a break, if you think your BJJ instructor know how to teach proper high level and chained wrestling attacks. BECAUSE HE DOESN'T.

Your instructor might have some judo stuff he picked up, and a so/so double leg and a few single finishes, but nothing like what Gil and Jake can do on their feet. Don't even try to say otherwise because you're just lying to yourselves.

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

It's changing in BJJ in America. If you're right, then I guess guys like Jacare (Judo black belt), Cyborg (former Brazilian national wrestling champion), Saulo (Judo black belt), Pablo Popovitch (known for his wrestling), and others don't do BJJ, but American Jiu-Jitsu? Or the countless former D-1 wrestlers who also teach BJJ? Fourfif, stop trying to squeeze everyone into some little stereotype. BJJ is broader than you make it out to be.

 

[fourfif**]

It's changing in BJJ in America. If you're right, then I guess guys like Jacare (Judo black belt), Cyborg (former Brazilian national wrestling champion), Saulo (Judo black belt), Pablo Popovitch (known for his wrestling), and others don't do BJJ, but American Jiu-Jitsu? Or the countless former D-1 wrestlers who also teach BJJ? Fourfif, stop trying to squeeze everyone into some little stereotype. BJJ is broader than you make it out to be.

Thats all well and fine, but those guys are the exception, not the rule. You can call what you do what you want. Jake/Gil are paying homage to their wrestling background and base, and I said in another thread, I am NOT the guy to question it, since we all have that in common... Cali Wrestling baby. Anyway now you guys now how close minded judoka feel I guess. They hate bjj like you all hate on AJJ. You'll get over it though, or just learn to deal with it.