Athleticism vs Skill

Legendary said:
With all the A-Level athlete talk, and with Kevin Lee's victory over Edson, it has me thinking about the athleticism of the average MMA fighter. BJJ coaches will always say that all you need is sport specific training but I am here to say why that is bullshit.

1. While skill is the most important thing, if two fighters are similar in skill, then the faster, stronger fighter is going to have the advantage.

2. Demian Maia, is Aeons ahead of Colby Covington when it comes to pure grappling skill, but Colby is much stronger, much faster, and even with technical gap, Colby was still able to dominate with his athleticism.

3. When Kevin and Khabib fought Edson, they beat him not because they were worlds better then him, they beat him because they are much stronger, faster, and it doesn't matter how good your skill is if your getting blasted. Their wrestling was better yes, but they are obviously just more physical then Edson.

4. You ever see that one white belt who taps blues and purples in the gym? Yeah its because he is faster and stronger, not because his pure skill is better then blues and purples.

5. On Another note, Athletic fighters are more entertaining. Would you rather watch Khabib throwing guys through the air, or Ryan Laflare stalling for 10 minutes?
Click to expand...

3. Agree with your general assessment but IMO not sure if your example is the best. To me it seems like Edson might be just as athletic and explosive as both of those guys maybe even more so than Kabib, they just happen to be monsters at grappling and terrible match up for Edson.

4. Again very much agree with this from personal experience. I had never done any form of grappling in my life, strictly boxing since I was five and didn't start no gi till mid thirties! I was out scrambling and exploding out of submission attempts. Strength and speed advantage definitely saved me from getting rag dolled by guys with more technique. Started tapping blue belts by my second month.
 
Experience and fight IQ can make up for deficiencies in athleticism, or size.

The dynamics are wide and varied.
 
With reguards to BJJ I think a big issue today is that actually there are not many high level exponents of it in MMA anymore(and those who are around are getting old and less agile). A lot of fighters in the sport today get away with doing stuff that would be punished by a high level BJJ guy, stuff like "just stand up" style ground escapes. You look at Nog for example and he was the absolute master of punishing people pushing too hard for examples, Sylvia, Semmy, Crocop, etc caught in subs as they were trying to escape the ground with him.
 
moreorless87 said:
With reguards to BJJ I think a big issue today is that actually there are not many high level exponents of it in MMA anymore(and those who are around are getting old and less agile). A lot of fighters in the sport today get away with doing stuff that would be punished by a high level BJJ guy, stuff like "just stand up" style ground escapes. You look at Nog for example and he was the absolute master of punishing people pushing too hard for examples, Sylvia, Semmy, Crocop, etc caught in subs as they were trying to escape the ground with him.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's that. I think BJJ's effectiveness has been minimized by that fact that everyone is schooled in it or at least how to defend it. Things continue to evolve.
 
Tephlon said:
I don't think it's that. I think BJJ's effectiveness has been minimized by that fact that everyone is schooled in it or at least how to defend it. Things continue to evolve.
Click to expand...

As I said I believe a big issue is the level of grappling people are facing has tended to decline, a lot of "evolved" guys suddenly have massive trouble when they face someone like Jacare or Maia on the ground, stuff they've been doing the rest of there career doesn't work anymore because it depends on opponents not having that degree of submission skill.
 
Fighting is like being good in bed. It's like my wife says it's not the size that matters but the way you use it. Same with fighting its not the amount of athleticism you have but how skilled you are while using it.
 
athleticism attributes skill because only the overall performance in given field matters and not some arbitrary greatness in isolated determinations.
 
Legendary said:
With all the A-Level athlete talk, and with Kevin Lee's victory over Edson, it has me thinking about the athleticism of the average MMA fighter. BJJ coaches will always say that all you need is sport specific training but I am here to say why that is bullshit.

1. While skill is the most important thing, if two fighters are similar in skill, then the faster, stronger fighter is going to have the advantage.

2. Demian Maia, is Aeons ahead of Colby Covington when it comes to pure grappling skill, but Colby is much stronger, much faster, and even with technical gap, Colby was still able to dominate with his athleticism.

3. When Kevin and Khabib fought Edson, they beat him not because they were worlds better then him, they beat him because they are much stronger, faster, and it doesn't matter how good your skill is if your getting blasted. Their wrestling was better yes, but they are obviously just more physical then Edson.

4. You ever see that one white belt who taps blues and purples in the gym? Yeah its because he is faster and stronger, not because his pure skill is better then blues and purples.

5. On Another note, Athletic fighters are more entertaining. Would you rather watch Khabib throwing guys through the air, or Ryan Laflare stalling for 10 minutes?
Click to expand...

Skill is a multiplier of athleticism. In some sports skill is a bigger multiplier than others (the most athletic people in the world, if they've never skated, are going to lose in hockey to a team of 12 year olds). In other sports its less of a multiplier - there is skill in sprinting and marathon, but its less of a factor because we spend much of our childhood learning how to run anyway - everyone has basic running skills).

How big a multiplier skill is in MMA is hard to say; its definitely there (you only have to see how badly very athletic guys are the first few times they come to class - 250 pound football players get tied into knots by 150 pound BJJ black belts). However, the diminishing returns set in reasonably fast in MMA, meaning going from advanced level to world class levels of skill (say Colby vs Maia) doesn't give much additional benefits.
 
Legendary said:
With all the A-Level athlete talk, and with Kevin Lee's victory over Edson, it has me thinking about the athleticism of the average MMA fighter. BJJ coaches will always say that all you need is sport specific training but I am here to say why that is bullshit.

1. While skill is the most important thing, if two fighters are similar in skill, then the faster, stronger fighter is going to have the advantage.

2. Demian Maia, is Aeons ahead of Colby Covington when it comes to pure grappling skill, but Colby is much stronger, much faster, and even with technical gap, Colby was still able to dominate with his athleticism.

3. When Kevin and Khabib fought Edson, they beat him not because they were worlds better then him, they beat him because they are much stronger, faster, and it doesn't matter how good your skill is if your getting blasted. Their wrestling was better yes, but they are obviously just more physical then Edson.

4. You ever see that one white belt who taps blues and purples in the gym? Yeah its because he is faster and stronger, not because his pure skill is better then blues and purples.

5. On Another note, Athletic fighters are more entertaining. Would you rather watch Khabib throwing guys through the air, or Ryan Laflare stalling for 10 minutes?
Click to expand...
Weidman-Mousasi-Kevin-Hoffman-USA-TODAY-660x330.jpg


Moose
 
Legendary said:
W
When Kevin and Khabib fought Edson, they beat him not because they were worlds better then him, they beat him because they are much stronger, faster, and it doesn't matter how good your skill is if your getting blasted. Their wrestling was better yes, but they are obviously just more physical then Edson.
Click to expand...
Khabib isn't even as close to as fast a Edson, and not remotely as athletic overall. Stronger and more skilled on the ground. Khabib isn't a particularly athletic fighter. He's just strong and deceptively slick on the ground.
 
Skill often comes from athleticism. Talented and strong individuals are more likely to stand out in physical activities early, develop passion for a certain sport, become noticed by coaches, mentored, pushed, and able to cultivate their skill faster than others.

If you're average from early age, or a weak, injury prone cuck, it's better to focus on jobs that require brain power.
 
Legendary said:
1. While skill is the most important thing, if two fighters are similar in skill, then the faster, stronger fighter is going to have the advantage.
Click to expand...

Ok, let's rephrase this though:
If two fighters are both equally athletic, the one with the more skill will have the advantage.
If two fighters are both equally skilled an athletic, the bigger one with have the advantage.
If two fighters are both equally sized and athletic, the one with the more skill will have the advantage.
If to fighters are both equally skilled and sized, the one with the more athleticism will have the advantage.
If two different are equally A, the one with B will have the advantage.

Do you get the pattern?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
1,237,567
Messages
55,499,286
Members
174,797
Latest member
Epsteins Guard

Share this page

Back
Top