B.J Penn or Max Holloway - Who do you rank higher in the GOAT rankings?

[Typrune Goatley]

It's hard to top BJ Penn but Max is very close with his resume.

I just looked at their records and they both have around 15 or 16 high quality wins. Both have beaten some great fighters. BJ beat Hughes 2x, Gomi, Sherk, Diego. Max has beaten guys like Aldo 2x, Charles, Pettis.

BJ's peak was absolutely ridiculous. He was an elite Welterweight, became WW Champ and was the best Lightweight we have ever seen. (And he even fought Machida at HW)

Max has had a long run at the top as well.

I think at this point they are almost even. I may have to give BJ the slight edge because he was a champion in 2 weight classes. Holloway could pass him up though if he picks up more wins in his career.

2 absolute legends from Hawaii

 

[Typrune Goatley]

BJ would have a much better legacy had he retired after the Diaz fight...

Makes no difference to me. I actually respect him more for still trying to fight while well past his prime.

 

[HockeyBjj]

Max. BJ had one fantastic win against Hughes, but I don’t like ranking “valiant losses” very highly as it’s still a loss. And that’s what most of his prime fights were.

(Also to me he retired after the Rory McDonald fight when he realized he didn’t have it anymore and nothing can change my mind on that)

 

[Poatan Power]

He beat gsp?

Who was the GOAT weltwerweight of all time on January 31st 2004?

Matt Hughes, UFC Welterweight Champion with 5 title defenses
35-3

just got done beating Sherk, Trigg, Newton x 2 leading up to the BJ Penn fight that Penn finished him in.

Please explain to me how that win can be surpassed by ANY Max win ever lol

 

[Poatan Power]

Max. BJ had one fantastic win against Hughes, but I don’t like ranking “valiant losses” very highly as it’s still a loss. And that’s what most of his prime fights were.

(Also to me he retired after the Rory McDonald fight when he realized he didn’t have it anymore and nothing can change my mind on that)

Let me state I love Max

If Max went up to 155 and submitted Khabib he would have done what BJ Penn did in 2004 by going up to 170 and beating Hughes. But he didn't. He went up to 155 and got demolished by Dustin for a 2nd time in a 2nd weight class -- by someone who has never held a title.

Max is 0-6 against Conor, Dustin and Volk

Max and BJ both had 3 title defenses in their respective divisions

Max is not even the best featherweight of his era (Volk, Aldo) and was routinely beaten by others who aren't held as highly as him (Dustin, Conor)

I cannot put Max above BJ when BJ accomplished more than him. I just can't bring myself to do it. BJ also faced much harder competition than Max ever did and he did it at his own weight class AND welterweight.

Just playing devils advocate along with my own thoughts

Agree with the valiant losses to an extent. But strength of competition matters in wins and losses.

 

[filthybliss]

Good question!

I feel BJ Penn reached higher highs but also lower lows. 2 division champion with wins over the likes of Matt Hughes.

Holloway also with 3 title defenses, but not much success outside FW. Beat the likes of Aldo, Edgar etc.

I am gonna have to lean towards Max, that 7 losses in a row + 16-14 record kind of hurts his legacy in my opinion. I know its still early, and its possible Max can go on a similar decline, since BJ started losing a lot around Max's current age too

I’m gonna have to disagree with you on this one, brother. I feel like Penn has reached heights as you mentioned that we won’t ever see again, being a lw and ww champ is something we’ve yet to see again. That’s like McNuggets beating a prime Usman . Also Penn had more balls than Max ever had, survived 5 rounds with machida at lhw. Don’t see max doing that against hill or poatan. Not to mention, Penn burnt up the goat GSP’s face like no one else.

Furthermore, Max’s best wins are against a geriatric Aldo and Edgar. Two different planets in terms of accomplishments.

Sure longevity is important but when the heights of accomplishments are so far apart, it seems pointless to bump someone above another when their best moments are shadowed so much. It’s like saying Arlovski is better than Cain because he’s been in his “prime” for longer

 

[filthybliss]

Let me state I love Max

If Max went up to 155 and submitted Khabib he would have done what BJ Penn did in 2004 by going up to 170 and beating Hughes. But he didn't. He went up to 155 and got demolished by Dustin for a 2nd time in a 2nd weight class -- by someone who has never held a title.

Max is 0-6 against Conor, Dustin and Volk

Max and BJ both had 3 title defenses in their respective divisions

Max is not even the best featherweight of his era (Volk, Aldo) and was routinely beaten by others who aren't held as highly as him (Dustin, Conor)

I cannot put Max above BJ when BJ accomplished more than him. I just can't bring myself to do it. BJ also faced much harder competition than Max ever did and he did it at his own weight class AND welterweight.

Just playing devils advocate along with my own thoughts

Agree with the valiant losses to an extent. But strength of competition matters in wins and losses.

Agreed. Penn has max shattered at practically every category. You could make an arguement for him being better than Volk, who should be unanimously considered better than max

 

[AmericanMMA]

BJ Penn! Can’t believe this vote is tied.

 

[Ares Black]

Pure talent and fighting ability at their peaks, it's BJ Penn by a significant margin.

But Holloway has the work ethic, strength of character, level of competition, and overall MMA legacy IMO.

Max Holloway passed BJ Penn as the GOAT Hawaiian fighter a while ago IMO.

 

[cws80us]

This is a tough because I love both guys. I just rank BJ slightly higher because he's a two division champ and I believe that in his prime he was one of the most skilled mma fighters of all-tine. Max had a nice run as FW champion and has been more consistent throughout his entire career, but he was never as skilled as BJ. The knock on BJ will always be the terrible end to his career with the 7 straight losses.

 

[BEATDOWNS]

Well max didn't lose 8 fights in a row, so.

 

[BowserJr]

BJ obviously.

Max is still in his prime and is #2 in his division. He can't beat guys 10lbs heavier at 155.

BJ is smaller than Max and dominated LW with only controversial decision losses before the 2nd Frankie fight. He is also beat the clear #2 WW of all time twice. Once while Hughes was absolute peak.

He went all the way to HW and had a close fight/great performance vs Lyoto and has wins at MW

 

[KID Yamamoto]

Blessed beat better fighters.

 

[cburm]

BJ Penn.

But keep in mind I'm super biased..

Ones a lw the others fw let's decide..

 

[Subline]

BJ Penn. Both are all time greats in their best division, with 3 title defenses each. BJ beating Prime Hughes to become WW champ puts him above.

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

BJ looked like he could beat guys who are a lot bigger than he was in his prime. Max is really great in 1 weight class. depends on what you hold more value in. longevity and dominance of a weight class, or a guy who believed he could beat anyone in the world and was pretty damn good at making his argument for it.

 

[Davidjacksonjones]

I’m gonna have to disagree with you on this one, brother. I feel like Penn has reached heights as you mentioned that we won’t ever see again, being a lw and ww champ is something we’ve yet to see again. That’s like McNuggets beating a prime Usman . Also Penn had more balls than Max ever had, survived 5 rounds with machida at lhw. Don’t see max doing that against hill or poatan. Not to mention, Penn burnt up the goat GSP’s face like no one else.

Furthermore, Max’s best wins are against a geriatric Aldo and Edgar. Two different planets in terms of accomplishments.

Sure longevity is important but when the heights of accomplishments are so far apart, it seems pointless to bump someone above another when their best moments are shadowed so much. It’s like saying Arlovski is better than Cain because he’s been in his “prime” for longer

Fair enough. Great points

 

[1BadMF]

Neither are GOATs but Holloway is the better fighter.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

I have to write this disclaimer for noobs that don't understand BJ's career..

BJ Penn's career is a tale of two fighters. There's the Pre 2nd Frankie fight BJ Penn and the Post 2nd Frankie fight BJ Penn

Pre 2nd Frankie fight BJ Penn had 16 wins 6 losses and one draw. Not too impressive right? Well if you actually watched those fights you would see that BJ was often on the wrong side of bad decisions..

Losses
Jens Pulver - Controversial decision loss..could have went either way..
Lyoto Machida - Legit loss at heavy weight
GSP 1 - Controversial decision..could have went either way..
Hughes 2 - Legit loss
GSP 2 - Legit loss
Frankie 1 - Controversial decision..could have went either way..

So up to before the 2nd Frankie fight. BJ could've easily had a 19 -3 record. With his only losses coming to a Prime Hughes, Prime GSP, and a young heavy weight Machida. All 3 of them legends in their own right and a few weight classes above BJ..That is some legendary sh!t..

Post 2nd Frankie fight BJ (1-8-1) was washed up and didn't know when to quit. He's an MMA fighter who aged fast and didn't realize he was done. Not to mention that BJ was always notorious for surrounding himself with 'Yes' men and sadly didn't have anyone around him with the balls to tell him it's time to quit...

That Marinovich conditioned Penn was about as good as it gets. Too bad it was only for two fights. I've heard that the reason they left midway through the first Frankie fight was because BJ was getting lazy and didn't want to do such hard S&C - his excuse being that it drained him and he did not have energy to spar. So Marv said fuck it and left.

 

[dildos]

tbh any noob or virgin that chooses max over BJ needs a head check.