Can you shortcut years of training by rolling with the best?

[migeru29]

And constantly getting the crap beat out of you? Would this "pragmatic" approach shortcut years of training? E.g. GSP training with the Canadian olympic wrestling did it for him.
If you have the opportunity of rolling (in the case of BJJ) with elite grapplers in a the daily basis that could be a shortcut instead of years of experience in technique right ?

 

[Fla graplr]

Depends how helpful they are at coaching you and helping you improve. Or do they just beat your ass. Either way, your defense will improve massively.

 

[yetanother]

It's hard to learn things if you are just getting destroyed.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Training with elite guys is good, but it's more a symptom than the real cause of rapid improvement: training at an elite school.

 

[asian-glow]

Training with elite guys is good, but it's more a symptom than the real cause of rapid improvement: training at an elite school.

I think this is a good answer. I think as you get better, the quality of training partners becomes more important than quality of instruction.

With that said, you get better bc just about everything will be better at an elite school, including the instruction, # of classes, etc.

 

[dormammu]

It's hard to learn things if you are just getting destroyed.

True, plus what top level guys wanna roll with a noob for hours and hours, unless you paying them, what they getting out of it?

 

[Calibur]

Initially I say yes, but I think at least a couple of guys at the same level are necessary to try new things.

If you go up against elites all day you can get very good at not dieing but not very good at actually living.

 

[dsdoubled]

Frank Shamrock used to say you need to put in an equal amount of time training with someone better than you, someone equal to you, and someone worse than you. I always thought that made a lot of sense.

 

[dsdoubled]

E.g. GSP training with the Canadian olympic wrestling did it for him.

I immediately thought of GSP when I read the title. Its tricky though because he was already a damn good grappler and a world class athlete. When you consider that plus who he had access to in terms of wrestling, it makes sense how he got so good so fast.

Mark Schultz didn't start wrestling until a year or 2 into High School and wound up a 3x NCAA DI champ just a couple years later but again, he was already a fantastic athlete and national level gymnast who happened to grow up fighting his brother, another great.

So I think you can get better quickly by training with people much higher level than yourself, but you need to have the athleticism and mentality to withstand it.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Your not going to get any good at destroying other people by getting destroyed all the time. You need lower level same level and better level training partners to evolve

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think this is a good answer. I think as you get better, the quality of training partners becomes more important than quality of instruction.

With that said, you get better bc just about everything will be better at an elite school, including the instruction, # of classes, etc.

Instruction is important at all levels, but what I was referring more to in terms of an elite school is the combination of elite instruction, elite training partners, *and* perhaps most importantly a training regimen that is oriented around producing high level competitors rather than retaining a large base of recreational hobbyists. If you're at a school where you just go to class, do a few moves with no resistance, and then roll a few rounds and go home it's going to take you a lot longer to get good than if you're at a school where you go in to a competition class, drill hard for an hour with serious competitors, and then roll hard for another 5-6 rounds. There's just no comparison on the quality of mat time.

 

[JustTheTip]

Not necessarily. It is optimal to have guys better than,equal to,and slightly below your level to improve. That said, in my observations the best way to shortcut your improvement is taking ownership of your improvement. That means actually having a personal plan of improvement and working on it systematically. The majority of people just come to class and hope to just learn through osmosis.

 

[asian-glow]

Instruction is important at all levels, but what I was referring more to in terms of an elite school is the combination of elite instruction, elite training partners, *and* perhaps most importantly a training regimen that is oriented around producing high level competitors rather than retaining a large base of recreational hobbyists. If you're at a school where you just go to class, do a few moves with no resistance, and then roll a few rounds and go home it's going to take you a lot longer to get good than if you're at a school where you go in to a competition class, drill hard for an hour with serious competitors, and then roll hard for another 5-6 rounds. There's just no comparison on the quality of mat time.

I think we fundamentally agree - high level schools just have better infrastructure to produce high level athletes.

I think there's a trickle down effect too where even the hobbyists of such a school will be better.

Like I think Atos has a sizable rec population. I was just talking to a guy 2 weeks ago who doesn't compete but got to roll with the Mendes Bros. He told me his first month all he rolled with were browns and blacks. Also said theres new people coming to visit all the time.

No way you won't improve under those conditions.

 

[asian-glow]

Your not going to get any good at destroying other people by getting destroyed all the time. You need lower level same level and better level training partners to evolve

Lot of ranting below.

I know this line of thinking blew up since Danaher stated a similar variation.

Personally I disagree. I felt I improved much more from getting my ass whooped by everyone, if only on a subconscious level. It takes a little more out of you mentally to train this way but I think on a similar timescale, you come out the other end a better grappler, even if your less happy from getting your ass beat all the time.

If things like loyalty were not a barrier, I think the best way to get good is to hop around to different schools and become a ronin (which I prefer to creonte). Become exposed to a completely different teaching style and set of partners.

After about a year or two, maybe 3 tops, you've seen the core of just about everything your instructor knows and you've become highly adapted to your training partners. I say adapted because sometimes it's hard to figure out whether you are getting better at grappling or if you've just become really used to the way your partners roll after years of the same roll. It may be analogous to always using the same set/rep/weight scheme in weight training - you sometimes need to mix things up to improve.

Of course most of us aren't this draconian. We become emotionally attached to our training partners, instructor, and stay for reasons beyond technical improvement.

Hopefully one day we'll have the grappling equivalent of a pub crawl. Pay a flat rate to be able to train at a bunch of places.

 

[rmongler]

'Shortcut' isn't really the right way of looking at it.

Will better training partners mean you get more quality for the time invested? Yes.

 

[yetanother]

I know this line of thinking blew up since Danaher stated a similar variation.
Personally I disagree.

If all you do is do rolls with a lot better people you will get a lot better at surviving sub attempts and more comfortable in dominant position but how are you going to develop a structured offense?

 

[Orion]

Paul Schreiner was on a podcast in the past year saying how it's important to do a large majority of your training with people around and below your skill level because it teaches you to win and also be a front runner. He emphasized how BJJ and grappling is largely a case of someone getting a lead and holding that lead, and that you cannot do that if you're just getting crushed all the time. He also stated that getting crushed all the time starts to create a mindset where you expect to lose and it can be detrimental.

 

[Quebec Nick]

Not necessarily. It is optimal to have guys better than,equal to,and slightly below your level to improve. That said, in my observations the best way to shortcut your improvement is taking ownership of your improvement. That means actually having a personal plan of improvement and working on it systematically. The majority of people just come to class and hope to just learn through osmosis.

Due to my schedule I go to the day classes where most of the guys have more experience than me, so if I do 5 rolls in that class, 4 of them will be against bigger or better guys than me and maybe one will my level or below. Once a week I go to the regular classes, and let's just say that I'm a bit picky about my partners. I may look as the guy who wants easy prey, but it's just to balance my trainings.


But one thing for sure, I saw a lot of improvement in my guard retention, my side control escapes, my back escapes and sub defense by getting smashed by better people. When I roll with people of my level it all seems to go in slow motion.

 

[BOWHUNTER]

Paul Schreiner was on a podcast in the past year saying how it's important to do a large majority of your training with people around and below your skill level because it teaches you to win and also be a front runner. He emphasized how BJJ and grappling is largely a case of someone getting a lead and holding that lead, and that you cannot do that if you're just getting crushed all the time. He also stated that getting crushed all the time starts to create a mindset where you expect to lose and it can be detrimental.

What podcast? I would like to listen to that, I have some of his instructionals and like him.

 

[aries]

If all you do is do rolls with a lot better people you will get a lot better at surviving sub attempts and more comfortable in dominant position but how are you going to develop a structured offense?

Makes complete sense if you are just getting attacked all the time and on the defensive, then all you will develop are defensive skills. No white belt will be able to sub you but you'll probably not be able to sub them either.