Choque - The official thread

[ijustwannasurf]

Long story short, hype kills.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

It's not uniquely effective as shown by a lot of wrestlers in vale tudo. It's Judo applied to a certain rule set (which had been done before). We just called it BJJ because those types of matches continued in popularity in Brazil whenthey had lost steam in the US and Europe.

The UFC was set up for Royce to win. There were plenty of guys from Brazil and other places who would have been recruited if it were really about finding the best fighters.

and UFC 2 and UFC 3 and UFC 4? right?

go cry a river, judokas were part of the early UFC, so was ken fucking shamrcok who at the time, in all mighty japan was the n

 

[brendan raedy]

Don't forget Judo World Silver and Olympic Bronze Medalist Ben Spijkers in Shooto and WCC.

Although I do not believe he was in his prime nor regarded as a ground specialist during what would have been, that's about as good a judoka as you can ask for in MMA, let alone the early days.

Erik Paulson and Renzo both submitted him with chokes.

 

[RacerX]

and UFC 2 and UFC 3 and UFC 4? right?

go cry a river, judokas were part of the early UFC, so was ken fucking shamrcok who at the time, in all mighty japan was the n

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Yeah, it's different in that they had to adapt to the rules (which Judo players did before they even went to Brazil). But even with no striking training a pure grappler will beat a pure striker.

what you guys failed to understand is that GJJ is not judo, its however a SET OF TECHNIQUES derivated from judo, and primary GJJ was in fact Judo with another strategy, trained for Vale Tudo.

what sets apart and has been setting apart GJJ/BJJ is its focus on fighting, not just grappling. early 70s 80s 90s GJJ practitioners were vale tudo fighters, most of them, at least trained for Vale Tudo, not for the olympics, the assumption that because there were better grapplers in Judo (or better athletes doing pure judo) could just walk in a cage and judo win is ridiculous, fighting is not pure grappling, specially when a both guys have some type of grappling skills.

 

[RacerX]

what you guys failed to understand is that GJJ is not judo, its however a SET OF TECHNIQUES derivated from judo, and primary GJJ was in fact Judo with another strategy, trained for Vale Tudo.

what sets apart and has been setting apart GJJ/BJJ is its focus on fighting, not just grappling. early 70s 80s 90s GJJ practitioners were vale tudo fighters, most of them, at least trained for Vale Tudo, not for the olympics, the assumption that because there were better grapplers in Judo (or better athletes doing pure judo) could just walk in a cage and judo win is ridiculous, fighting is not pure grappling, specially when a both guys have some type of grappling skills.

History started way before 1970 as did Judo and jiu-jistu before it.

BJJ is Judo applied to fights with open rules compared with judo, including striking and that application hardly started in Brazil.

 

[brendan raedy]

Barnett offers an interesting counter narrative but I believe he is just as biased as the Gracies. Like them, he is marketing himself and his style.

I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[RacerX]

Barnett offers an interesting counter narrative but I believe he is just as biased as the Gracies. Like them, he is marketing himself and his style.

I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle.

True, but I think it's funny how he did that at a Gracie event.

Gracie Judo, IMO.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

They were in Brazil and Russia and a lot of places. If you don't think there were people who could fight in 1993, you are clueless.

The point is that BJJ is nothing new under the sun. It's grappling well-marketed. And the problem with the hype is that we get this idiotic TMA attitude of "Grandmaster Helio invented leverage for you plebes".

LOL at BJJ guys getting mad at someone giving a more realistic history of jiu-jistu in Brazil than the Gracie propaganda and getting mad because Josh Barnett got some attention for CACC.

Deal With It

were there? and please tell me where the fuck were they fighting?

The point is that BJJ is nothing new under the sun. It's grappling well-marketed. And the problem with the hype is that we get this idiotic TMA attitude of "Grandmaster Helio invented leverage for you plebes".

am I one of those?

after a while, you really got to be an oxymoron to believe the official gracie story of helio being extremely weak and developing ninja moves to overcome the stronger guy. You just have to look at pictures of helio back in those days if you didnt go..hmmm wait a minute, theres something wrong with you.

thats my previous post.

believing that GJJ was just Judo marketed differently is just as stupid as believing that Helio invented Leverage...

 

[brendan raedy]

True, but I think it's funny how he did that at a Gracie event.

Gracie Judo, IMO.

One thing you have to give Barnett is that dude has no fear. He had Ralek on his podcast and was ribbing him (good natured) about G in a Gi. Oh, that and he fought Cro Cop in his prime three times.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

History started way before 1970 as did Judo and jiu-jistu before it.

BJJ is Judo applied to fights with open rules compared with judo, including striking and that application hardly started in Brazil.

who cares where it started? Judo is pre old Jiu jitsu applicated to sports, who the fuck cares? what made the difference between GJJ and Judo it was the training you got, if you wouldve walked in the 60's into a Judo academy you would be drilling tds and some ground work, if you wouldve walkled into a GJJ academy you would be drilling ground work with strikes involved. Its the training what makes the difference.

 

[tap21]

As an aside, anybody who likes this Choque info will also like the same author's chapter-by-chapter review of the first half of Reyla Gracie's book (which hasn't been translated into English yet). There is actually a conspiracy theory/rumor involving Rorion about why the book hasn't been translated into English. Others on F12 have talked about that rumor.

Here are a few interesting topics of stories related in Reyla's book and described in the chapter reviews at GTR:

Carlos channeling the Peruvian spirit "Egidio Lasjovino" to convince his friend to bankroll all of his various activities and also get said friend to let Carlos knock up the friend's fiancee. (http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp9.htm and last paragraph at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp18.htm)

Carlos doing a little jail time for knocking up his underage maid. Apparently George also knocked up an underage girl but actually married her. (7th Paragraph at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp18.htm and paragraph 4 at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp20.htm. On George, paragraph 2 at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp12.htm)

Carlos knocking up a second maid then marrying the au pair two days before the maid had the baby. (4th paragraph at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp20.htm).

Carlos considered himself a scientist on the female orgasm. (2nd Paragraph at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp20.htm)

One of the Ono brothers throwing Helio 32 times in one match and then subbing George with a Choke in a subsequent match. (http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp17.htm).

Gastao Jr. (Carlos and Helio's brother) believing that he had developed supernatural powers just like Carlos and could: see people's auras and cure medical problems with hypnosis. (paragraph 2 at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp13.htm).

Carlos was a follower of this Ukrainian occultist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Blavatsky. (2nd to last paragraph at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp25.htm)

There's tons more.

Here's the GTR page with links to all the chapter reviews. People interested in this history should definitely check out the stories here:

http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_previous.htm.

 

[RTD1]

I just started reading it yesterday and can't put it down. It's fascinating how this version of history differs from what we hear at BJJ schools today.
...

I hope he actually does volume two of the book talking about 1950-1999.

Volume Two is supposed to come out sometime in 2015. I'm looking forward to it as well.

Speculation on my part based on what I've read elsewhere - what we know as BJJ today developed mainly during the 1950's-1970's. Lots happened during that period. Judo Ne Waza specialists came over from Japan. Rolls Gracie went out around the world and trained with leading judo, wrestling, sambo, etc. guys and brought that back. Lots of fights took place and people learned by doing, empirical knowledge.

Watch some of the footage of the earlier jiu jitsu fights (e.g., Helio vs Kimura) and they look more like judo matches than NHB. Classic lapel and sleeve grips, circle/shuffle footwork, etc. This was not yet the BJJ that we know today.

 

[RacerX]

who cares where it started? Judo is pre old Jiu jitsu applicated to sports, who the fuck cares? what made the difference between GJJ and Judo it was the training you got, if you wouldve walked in the 60's into a Judo academy you would be drilling tds and some ground work, if you wouldve walkled into a GJJ academy you would be drilling ground work with strikes involved. Its the training what makes the difference.

People have been combining Judo with LARPing (aka "Japanese jiu-jistu) for a long time. GJJ from the likes of Ralph Gracie or Mario Sperry is not what most BJJ people are doing or have ever done. That's especially true today. Most people will either grapple or LARP, but they won't fight vale tudo.

The history of BJJ is tainted by self-promotion.

 

[RTD1]

I'm still confused. mixmartialartshistory website says the Catch guys in England didn't use submissions until the Japanese judoka taught them submissions. yet Barnett says everyone was learning subs from the catch guys.

This will be a controversial statement that will piss people off, but it's my informed opinion based on what I've read - most legit catch wrestling matches in the late 1800's and early 1900's worldwide were won by pin. Submission wins happened, but more often than not submission holds were used against opponents who were sprawled out on their stomachs to either turn them over for the pin or force them to submit if they wouldn't. Just as there is revisionist history in BJJ there is revisionist history in CACC nowadays to make it look like there was more emphasis on submissions than there really was.

this book is interesting but wow is it boring. pretty much a translation of newspaper articles.

Agreed. Fascinating info in the book but gave me a headache to read.

the other thing I'm weary about is how many of these fights where real vs staged.

Based on Choque, it seems the transition from real wrestling to fake happened in Brazil during the mid 1930's. It happened a little earlier in North America based on what I've seen elsewhere.

 

[RacerX]

Yeah, those Carlos stories are something else :icon_lol:

I especailly like the one about 'Carlos channeling the Peruvian spirit "Egidio Lasjovino" to convince his friend to bankroll all of his various activities and also get said friend to let Carlos knock up the friend's fiancee'.

Carlos comes off the worst in this book. George and Helio both look better.

Carlos would supposedly challenge people, then say "Oh, George will fight you". LOL.

That reminds me of the story of Helio rescuing the man from drowning the Atlantic Ocean. Carlos was sea sick and convinced Helio to save the guy. LOL. Carlos comes off like a Bobby "The Brain" Heenan figure.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

People have been combining Judo with LARPing (aka "Japanese jiu-jistu) for a long time. GJJ from the likes of Ralph Gracie or Mario Sperry is not what most BJJ people are doing or have ever done. That's especially true today. Most people will either grapple or LARP, but they won't fight vale tudo.

The history of BJJ is tainted by self-promotion.

Gjj/bjj was never about larping, and you saying htat only shows how ignorant you are on the history of bjj/gjj.

 

[RTD1]

Virtually everything we thought we knew about BJJ history prior to GTR, Choque, etc. came from Rorion Gracie's late 1980's Playboy Magazine interview and his Gracie In Action tapes from around the same period. It was marketing spin developed by Rorion during the 1980's based loosely on word of mouth stories from Helio which in turn were based loosely on historical fact. 98% of it was bullshit.

 

[RacerX]

who cares where it started? Judo is pre old Jiu jitsu applicated to sports, who the fuck cares? what made the difference between GJJ and Judo it was the training you got, if you wouldve walked in the 60's into a Judo academy you would be drilling tds and some ground work, if you wouldve walkled into a GJJ academy you would be drilling ground work with strikes involved. Its the training what makes the difference.

BTW, I'm not saying nothing came from BJJ or GJJ or Brazil. Brazil served as a place to keep the "Choque" game alive and certain people, as self-promoting as they may have been, brought it to the attention of us posting here today. And Royce did have to fight. So, I give them credit, but I just wish that credit would be extended to others.

 

[RacerX]

Gjj/bjj was never about larping, and you saying htat only shows how ignorant you are on the history of bjj/gjj.

I'm talking about the 36 techniques. That's an old set of instructions. A lot of these Gracie Combatives guys are LARPing. I think it's actually a marketing device to get them into the Master Cycle.