Choque - The official thread

As an aside, anybody who likes this Choque info will also like the same author's chapter-by-chapter review of the first half of Reyla Gracie's book (which hasn't been translated into English yet). There is actually a conspiracy theory/rumor involving Rorion about why the book hasn't been translated into English. Others on F12 have talked about that rumor.

Here are a few interesting topics of stories related in Reyla's book and described in the chapter reviews at GTR:

Carlos channeling the Peruvian spirit "Egidio Lasjovino" to convince his friend to bankroll all of his various activities and also get said friend to let Carlos knock up the friend's fiancee. (http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp9.htm and last paragraph at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp18.htm)

Carlos doing a little jail time for knocking up his underage maid. Apparently George also knocked up an underage girl but actually married her. (7th Paragraph at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp18.htm and paragraph 4 at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp20.htm. On George, paragraph 2 at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp12.htm)

Carlos knocking up a second maid then marrying the au pair two days before the maid had the baby. (4th paragraph at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp20.htm).

Carlos considered himself a scientist on the female orgasm. (2nd Paragraph at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp20.htm)

One of the Ono brothers throwing Helio 32 times in one match and then subbing George with a Choke in a subsequent match. (http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp17.htm).

Gastao Jr. (Carlos and Helio's brother) believing that he had developed supernatural powers just like Carlos and could: see people's auras and cure medical problems with hypnosis. (paragraph 2 at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp13.htm).

Carlos was a follower of this Ukrainian occultist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Blavatsky. (2nd to last paragraph at http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_chp25.htm)

There's tons more.

Here's the GTR page with links to all the chapter reviews. People interested in this history should definitely check out the stories here:

http://www.global-training-report.com/reyla_rev_previous.htm.
this thread... mind = blown

i remember reading a lot of interviews years ago on Global Training Report, i always wondered why nobody talked about stuff that was on that site, because it has a lot of informations that you can't find anywhere on the internet.
 
Reading the book and subsequent articles has certainly changed my perspective on things.

it's changed the way I talk about it and the way I think about it. particularly with how I talk about it with new folks. been doing a lot of replacing "this came from Helio" with "this came from Japan, and was perfected by smaller, less athletically powerful fighters"
 
Take what you know about Choque and the gospels of Helio and apply the same concept to Christianity and the holy bible.

mind = atomic explode

While I don't disagree with you at all, this thread is not the place.
 
That's one hell of a non sequitur deadlizard.
 
Aside from making no sense, certainly not the right thread for that discussion.

I'm still reading Choque. When does Helio fight Kimura? I'm waiting to see the build up on that one.
 
There is actually a conspiracy theory/rumor involving Rorion about why the book hasn't been translated into English. Others on F12 have talked about that rumor.

It's been a while, but I seem to remember a lot more hate coming from the Carlos side of the family than Rorion. To quote Roberto Pedreira:

"The book was published in Brazil in 2008, with an English translation promised. It hasn't materialized. Rumor has it that Rorion made Reyla or someone an offer they can't refuse, in order to keep it out of the USA. That may be attributing too much of a "Dr. Evil" type ambition to control the universe to Rorion. There is plenty of dirt on Carlos himself. Possibly someone on his side of the family put the kibosh on the deal. Or it may be that translating an almost 600 page book is too expensive given the market for such books. As fascinating as the story may be to people who love jiu-jitsu, most North Americans have never heard of the Gracies and don't care."
 
Yeah, the book certainly paints Carlos in the worse light so far. Helio seemed to stick to his guns. George was just a crazy fighting mofo. Oswaldo seemed to be just along for the ride.
 
Yeah, the book certainly paints Carlos in the worse light so far. Helio seemed to stick to his guns. George was just a crazy fighting mofo. Oswaldo seemed to be just along for the ride.

Poor Gastao Jr, everyone always forgets about him.
 
I recently finished reading Choque: The Untold Story of Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil 1856-1949 (Volume 1).

http://www.amazon.com/Choque-Untold-Jiu-Jitsu-Brazil-1856-1949/dp/1491226366


I'm not going to write a full on summary or review of the book here. My memory sucks and I've already forgotten a bunch of shit, I probably should have taken notes as I went. Oh well. I'll stick to just providing some of the key points, particularly the ones I found new and interesting. I'll add to the thread if I remember more stuff later.
- Carlos Gracie never really studied under Maeda. It's possible he took 1 or 2 private lessons from Maeda but that's it. He studied for a couple of months under Jacyntho Ferro, then he studied for 2-3 years under Donato Pires dos Reis, who apparently was the only person Maeda ever authorized to teach. It was Donato Pires whom the Gracies learned from not Maeda. Pires ran the academy that Maeda established and then left. Then apparently when Pires was out of town on business once, Carlos and his brothers essentially hijacked the school. When he returned, they kicked him out and renamed Pires's academy to the Gracie Academy. Crazy shit. Also, it appears that what the Gracies actually learned from Pires over that 2-3 year period was a half dozen judo throws plus the usual traditional self defense techniques, not the BJJ that most people know today, that came later.

- Helio Gracie learned from Carlos. The story about Helio being frail and fainting all the time and learning by watching was nonsense as everyone knows now. While Carlos was learning jiu jitsu from Donato Pires, Helio was a few towns over competing in swimming and rowing events, where he was quite successful.

- George Gracie was the real fighter of the Gracie family. He had more fights than all of his brothers put together and was far more successful than they were. Unfortunately, Carlos and Helio later wrote him out of the story they created. Carlos wasn't much of a fighter at all. He had 1 professional fight, against Manoel Rufino do Santos, and he lost it. Apparently the two fighters started falling out of the ring, the ref ordered them to break, there was a dispute, and Carlos refused to fight when ordered to continue and left the arena, so the ref awarded it to Manoel. He had one amateur fight prior to that, against a person George described as completely unskilled and not knowing anything about fighting, that ended in a draw. So Carlos retired from fighting with a record of 0-1-1. After that, he would challenge people to fights and then after they accepted he'd tell them to fight Helio instead. Helio had a dozen or so fights during the 1930's. It is important to realize that the vast majority of these "fights" and all other "fights" during this period were actually more akin to submission grappling matches - no striking allowed in most of them, unless the fight was against a boxer in which case the boxer was allowed to punch while standing but no strikes on the ground or against a capoeira person in which case only kicks were permitted and only while standing. Remember, these were circus acts, right alongside the bearded ladies and wolf boys, not what we normally think of as sports. Most of Helio's early matches ended as draws, which is misleading because in some of them he was literally thrown dozens of times and then manhandled on the mat, but the time limits would expire before anyone gave up.

This is a little overstated.

Pedreira writes (on page 132): "Carlos may have taken some lessons from Conde Koma, but it is certain he exaggerated. Conde Koma wasn't in Belem for the entire three year period hat Carlos claimed he was Koma's prize pupil."

That's not the same as saying "he never really studied" under Koma, or to claim that he only possibly could have learned two lessons from him.

Pedreira offers Pires as a "plausible source" of Gracie's jiu-jitsu but doesn't outright claim that's where he learned jiu-jitsu as you do above.

Pedreira even brings up the idea that Gracie could have simply learned from books. Ferro died in 1929 and Pedreira finds it unlikely Gracie learned much under him at all. Relia Gracie mentions Ferro as someone he trained with.

In 1931, Pedreira quotes Geo Omori, who received his black belt from the Kodokan, as boasting: "among the Brazilians, there is no one who can apply the techniques of the Japanese method of defense [jiu-jitsu] better than the Gracie brothers." I know, this is show biz, but it's still on record.

George fights more than anyone else, true, but he also admits to working fights. I'll have to look back but IIRC, Helio isn't exactly manhandled in most accounts of his bouts in Choque. A lot of them sounded really dull. But I'll take another look.
 
This is a little overstated.

Pedreira writes (on page 132): "Carlos may have taken some lessons from Conde Koma, but it is certain he exaggerated. Conde Koma wasn't in Belem for the entire three year period hat Carlos claimed he was Koma's prize pupil."

That's not the same as saying "he never really studied" under Koma, or to claim that he only possibly could have learned two lessons from him.

Pedreira offers Pires as a "plausible source" of Gracie's jiu-jitsu but doesn't outright claim that's where he learned jiu-jitsu as you do above.

Pedreira even brings up the idea that Gracie could have simply learned from books. Ferro died in 1929 and Pedreira finds it unlikely Gracie learned much under him at all. Relia Gracie mentions Ferro as someone he trained with.

In 1931, Pedreira quotes Geo Omori, who received his black belt from the Kodokan, as boasting: "among the Brazilians, there is no one who can apply the techniques of the Japanese method of defense [jiu-jitsu] better than the Gracie brothers." I know, this is show biz, but it's still on record.

Did you read then entire book, including the appendices? Pedreira makes a very convincing case that Carlos learned from Donato Pires. Maeda was hardly ever around. Pires ran the academy, until he was out of town once and the Gracies stole it from him.

George fights more than anyone else, true, but he also admits to working fights. I'll have to look back but IIRC, Helio isn't exactly manhandled in most accounts of his bouts in Choque. A lot of them sounded really dull. But I'll take another look.

In one of Helio's fights, he was thrown something like 37 times. Almost all of his fights before he retired for the first time in the late 1930's were grappling-only matches that ended in draws, and according to many of the descriptions Helio just basically held onto the guy for the entire time. After Helio came out of retirement, it sounded like he was much better. So that begs the question of what/with whom was he training during that time.
 
Did you read then entire book, including the appendices? Pedreira makes a very convincing case that Carlos learned from Donato Pires. Maeda was hardly ever around. Pires ran the academy, until he was out of town once and the Gracies stole it from him.



In one of Helio's fights, he was thrown something like 37 times. Almost all of his fights before he retired for the first time in the late 1930's were grappling-only matches that ended in draws, and according to many of the descriptions Helio just basically held onto the guy for the entire time. After Helio came out of retirement, it sounded like he was much better. So that begs the question of what/with whom was he training during that time.

is the author of this book providing sources? news papers photographs etc, proves of what hes talking about? because something doesnt add up, If helio was having just grappling matches vs other guy who had no grappling experience, then how the heck did he gain such recognition? how did he do to spread bjj? Gjj? as far as I know, he fought Santana under vale tudo rules, why on earth would a guy who has been grappling only his entire career jumped into a vale tudo fight vs his much younger student? twice!

Something just doesnt make sense, I mean, people is stupid and like to believe in myths and stuff, hell the average human being with a TV was scammed to death by TMArtis from the 60 till well, royce gracie, Steven seagal was considered a more efficent war weapon that a nuclear bomb... but still, dont you think is kind of weird that a guy was able to spread his MA through brazil, gain popularity as the best sd system back then, by just holding guys into his close guard? specially holding non grapplers? how many people do you think wouldve gone to his gym after seen such a display of "skill".. Is obvious that the author of this book is doing his best to discredit the gracie history, and of course, believing faithfully in rorions story is just about the same as believing in unicorns... but if he author cant provide hard proof of what hes saying, then everything should not be accounted as proof...
 
I'm still confused. mixmartialartshistory website says the Catch guys in England didn't use submissions until the Japanese judoka taught them submissions. yet Barnett says everyone was learning subs from the catch guys.
That's my website. If you look at the rules for CACC at the time that that Japanese submission grapplers were taking on all comers in England, it is very clear that submitting your opponent on purpose was considered foul. The grapplers in question were trained at the Handa dojo in Osaka, and not the Kodokan
 
is the author of this book providing sources? news papers photographs etc, proves of what hes talking about? because something doesnt add up, If helio was having just grappling matches vs other guy who had no grappling experience, then how the heck did he gain such recognition? how did he do to spread bjj? Gjj? as far as I know, he fought Santana under vale tudo rules, why on earth would a guy who has been grappling only his entire career jumped into a vale tudo fight vs his much younger student? twice!

Something just doesnt make sense, I mean, people is stupid and like to believe in myths and stuff, hell the average human being with a TV was scammed to death by TMArtis from the 60 till well, royce gracie, Steven seagal was considered a more efficent war weapon that a nuclear bomb... but still, dont you think is kind of weird that a guy was able to spread his MA through brazil, gain popularity as the best sd system back then, by just holding guys into his close guard? specially holding non grapplers? how many people do you think wouldve gone to his gym after seen such a display of "skill".. Is obvious that the author of this book is doing his best to discredit the gracie history, and of course, believing faithfully in rorions story is just about the same as believing in unicorns... but if he author cant provide hard proof of what hes saying, then everything should not be accounted as proof...

They used the newspaper for promoting themselves really well.
 
is the author of this book providing sources? news papers photographs etc, proves of what hes talking about? because something doesnt add up, If helio was having just grappling matches vs other guy who had no grappling experience, then how the heck did he gain such recognition? how did he do to spread bjj? Gjj? as far as I know, he fought Santana under vale tudo rules, why on earth would a guy who has been grappling only his entire career jumped into a vale tudo fight vs his much younger student? twice!

Something just doesnt make sense, I mean, people is stupid and like to believe in myths and stuff, hell the average human being with a TV was scammed to death by TMArtis from the 60 till well, royce gracie, Steven seagal was considered a more efficent war weapon that a nuclear bomb... but still, dont you think is kind of weird that a guy was able to spread his MA through brazil, gain popularity as the best sd system back then, by just holding guys into his close guard? specially holding non grapplers? how many people do you think wouldve gone to his gym after seen such a display of "skill".. Is obvious that the author of this book is doing his best to discredit the gracie history, and of course, believing faithfully in rorions story is just about the same as believing in unicorns... but if he author cant provide hard proof of what hes saying, then everything should not be accounted as proof...

He cites the newspapers and dates for just about everything of importance. And people did give Helio credit for his defense, they just thought his fights were boring.
 
He cites the newspapers and dates for just about everything of importance. And people did give Helio credit for his defense, they just thought his fights were boring.

one thing is to give credit for his defense vs an actual grappler, not vs some dude who had no idea how to grapple, if most fights were grappling matches, vs dudes with no grappling skills, then wtf was helio doing to attract people?
 
one thing is to give credit for his defense vs an actual grappler, not vs some dude who had no idea how to grapple, if most fights were grappling matches, vs dudes with no grappling skills, then wtf was helio doing to attract people?

He promoted his wins and/or draws really well via newspapers.

Even in the book Carlos Gracie, the writer debunked some of the fights that he had.
 
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