Choque - The official thread

[BJJ_Rage]

They used the newspaper for promoting themselves really well.

fair enough, but at some point, he had to put up with the hype, I mean, the whole thing was about to prove the art, or so he said, lets say the were intentionally misleading people to believe they were actually fighting... well, what were the news papers talking about? Helio vs X Boxer, karate, kung fu dude, ended in a draw, again! Helio proved once again GJJ is the superior art, come join the Gracie academy so you can draw unexperience grapplers in grappling matches!!, I mean, call me crazy, but something just doesnt add up... you can do it once, eventually people is going to catch up with the scam, why the hell would anyone try to join a gym of a guy whos just drawing vs other non grapplers in grappling matches? if this author is citing news papers and stuff, then the Gracies werent using news papers really well, becasue in order to the news papers to promote themselves, they had to actually do something that had to be promoted, and draws were hardly news that were going to attract masses to join the gracie academy.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

He promoted his wins and/or draws really well via newspapers.

Even in the book Carlos Gracie, the writer debunked some of the fights that he had.

I have no doubt helio or some gracie were bullshitting about some stuff, I just dont think all of his fights were like that, I mean there had to be something real behind it...

 

[lechien]

fair enough, but at some point, he had to put up with the hype, I mean, the whole thing was about to prove the art, or so he said, lets say the were intentionally misleading people to believe they were actually fighting... well, what were the news papers talking about? Helio vs X Boxer, karate, kung fu dude, ended in a draw, again! Helio proved once again GJJ is the superior art, come join the Gracie academy so you can draw unexperience grapplers in grappling matches!!, I mean, call me crazy, but something just doesnt add up... you can do it once, eventually people is going to catch up with the scam, why the hell would anyone try to join a gym of a guy whos just drawing vs other non grapplers in grappling matches? if this author is citing news papers and stuff, then the Gracies werent using news papers really well, becasue in order to the news papers to promote themselves, they had to actually do something that had to be promoted, and draws were hardly news that were going to attract masses to join the gracie academy.

Basically, Carlos and Helio started a trend which can be describe as the braziliasation of Judo.

They create rules when they could not lose against judo.

They created style vs style where they could not lose or could just draw and claim a moral victory.

In the book named Carlos Gracie, on of the first challenge was against capoeira and they made them wear kimono.

Even the capoeira community got upset because they fell that the capeoira reps were beginners and strikes were not allowed on the ground etc...

Edit: Zulu said in an interview that his first fight against Rickson was supposed to be vale tudo but they changed the rules to grappling match only 30 minutes before the fight started.

 

[MarcoRugeAss]

Here is an independent chronology done by the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu historian, Carlos Eduardo Loddo and Catch Historian Mark Hewitt:

Rio de Janeiro, Brazil-1930

 

[MarcoRugeAss]

...continued


12/1933-Rio
George Gracie drew Geo Omori, vale tudo.

1/6/1934-Luna Park Buenos Aires, Argentina
The first professional catch-as-catch-can wrestling tournament was held by Stanislaus and Wladek Zbyszko and their North American troupe featuring Count Karl Nowina and Andres Castanos.

1/19/34-Stadium Brasil Rio
George Gracie vs. Dudu, luta livre

 

[brendan raedy]

Can somebody please revive the Helio Gracie Diaries on the OG?

 

[Leify]

fair enough, but at some point, he had to put up with the hype, I mean, the whole thing was about to prove the art, or so he said, lets say the were intentionally misleading people to believe they were actually fighting... well, what were the news papers talking about? Helio vs X Boxer, karate, kung fu dude, ended in a draw, again! Helio proved once again GJJ is the superior art, come join the Gracie academy so you can draw unexperience grapplers in grappling matches!!, I mean, call me crazy, but something just doesnt add up... you can do it once, eventually people is going to catch up with the scam, why the hell would anyone try to join a gym of a guy whos just drawing vs other non grapplers in grappling matches? if this author is citing news papers and stuff, then the Gracies werent using news papers really well, becasue in order to the news papers to promote themselves, they had to actually do something that had to be promoted, and draws were hardly news that were going to attract masses to join the gracie academy.

Helio and others were drawing against bigger men in some cases. This, combined with newspapers having articles about the fights and perhaps omitting that ground strikes weren't allowed, may have cast BJJ in a good light.

 

[Tom Hackett]

In one of Helio's fights, he was thrown something like 37 times. Almost all of his fights before he retired for the first time in the late 1930's were grappling-only matches that ended in draws, and according to many of the descriptions Helio just basically held onto the guy for the entire time. After Helio came out of retirement, it sounded like he was much better. So that begs the question of what/with whom was he training during that time.

Some matches he's dominated, like against Yano, as you describe. Some not.

Helio defeated Dudu, for example, and Pedreira notes that Dudu had dominated George Gracie in their match. Dudu had defeated Geo Omori by submission as well. He's described as a luta livre champion by Pedreira.

Helio Gracie's career in Choque:

1932: Helio's debut against Antonio Portugal. It's not described in great detail, just "a good fight" where both fought with "enthusiasm." Helio wins, but it isn't noted how.

1932: Helio faces Namiki. Namiki is described as dominating most of the bout, but Helio is noted as attacking later in the fight.

1932: Ebert & Helio had what's described as a boring fight. Ebert fails attempts at throwing Helio out of the ring, and tries a submission; Helio attacks with two armlocks. It ends a draw. Pedreira notes Helio is out-weighed, and it's no-gi.

(It's overstating to describe Helio as just "holding on" for the entire match here or against Namiki. Pedreira doesn't write that either time.)

1934: Helio defeats Miyaki by choke.

1934: Helio & Zbyszko have a boring match -- neither attacked much. Zybskyo wears a gi but also has a 30 kg weight advantage.

1935: Ono and Helio have a draw, Ono dominates as you mention.

1935: Helio defeated Dudu by submission -- it's said that Dudu exhausted himself in Helio's guard, and quit after they were stood up and Gracie landed a kick and punch.

(Pedreira notes that Dudu had dominated George Gracie in their match. Dudu had defeated Geo Omori by submission as well. He's described as a luta livre champion by Pedreira -- and 85 kg to Helio's 66.)

1936: Yano dominates Helio as you describe. But even then, Pedreira includes accounts from writers of the day who blame Yano for not engaging.

1936: Ono dominates Helio but fails to finish.

1936: Helio defeats Massagoichi by armlock.

1937, Helio is DQed for using a prohibited technique against Dudu.

1937:Helio defeats Klausner by armlock.

Five wins by submission, six draws, one loss by DQ.

There were times Helio seemed over-matched in these accounts, sure -- and seemed to just survive. But as you can see above, that's not the whole story.

I'm a little wary of people replacing one exaggerated account of history for another.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

1/1932-Rio
Helio Gracie beat Antonio Portugal, boxer

 

[MarcoRugeAss]

Some matches he's dominated, like against Yano, as you describe. Some not.

Helio defeated Dudu, for example, and Pedreira notes that Dudu had dominated George Gracie in their match. Dudu had defeated Geo Omori by submission as well. He's described as a luta livre champion by Pedreira.

Helio Gracie's career in Choque:

1932: Helio's debut against Antonio Portugal. It's not described in great detail, just "a good fight" where both fought with "enthusiasm." Helio wins, but it isn't noted how.

1932: Helio faces Namiki. Namiki is described as dominating most of the bout, but Helio is noted as attacking later in the fight.

1932: Ebert & Helio had what's described as a boring fight. Ebert fails attempts at throwing Helio out of the ring, and tries a submission; Helio attacks with two armlocks. It ends a draw. Pedreira notes Helio is out-weighed, and it's no-gi.

(It's overstating to describe Helio as just "holding on" for the entire match here or against Namiki. Pedreira doesn't write that either time.)

1934: Helio defeats Miyaki by choke.

1934: Helio & Zbyszko have a boring match -- neither attacked much. Zybskyo wears a gi but also has a 30 kg weight advantage.

1935: Ono and Helio have a draw, Ono dominates as you mention.

1935: Helio defeated Dudu by submission -- it's said that Dudu exhausted himself in Helio's guard, and quit after they were stood up and Gracie landed a kick and punch.

(Pedreira notes that Dudu had dominated George Gracie in their match. Dudu had defeated Geo Omori by submission as well. He's described as a luta livre champion by Pedreira -- and 85 kg to Helio's 66.)

1936: Yano dominates Helio as you describe. But even then, Pedreira includes accounts from writers of the day who blame Yano for not engaging.

1936: Ono dominates Helio but fails to finish.

1936: Helio defeats Massagoichi by armlock.

1937, Helio is DQed for using a prohibited technique against Dudu.

1937:Helio defeats Klausner by armlock.

Five wins by submission, six draws, one loss by DQ.

There were times Helio seemed over-matched in these accounts, sure -- and seemed to just survive. But as you can see above, that's not the whole story.

I'm a little wary of people replacing one exaggerated account of history for another.

Compare to George's record in the same period.

 

[Tom Hackett]

Compare to George's record in the same period.

George was definitely more active in these years than Helio. I don't have time to document every bout, but maybe later in the week.

Against common opponents, I'd say Helio acquits himself pretty well in "Choque." Helio defeated Dudu, who is said to have dominated George in an earlier match (which ended in a draw). George also lost to Zbyszko, who drew with Helio.

To be fair, George fought Yano to a draw the year before Helio did, but was more competitive against him than Helio.

George was also willing to engage more aggressively, which IIRC led Yano to state that George was the better jiu-jitsu artist of the two.

It's not all black & white. My point was that the talk about Helio is getting a little one sided here.

As you can see, statements like "almost all of his fights were grappling-only matches that ended in draws," where "Helio just basically held onto the guy for the entire time," or implying Helio was "manhandled" in most of his matches, are exaggerating things a bit. He definitely has his bright spots in "Choque" and I think that's getting glossed over.

 

[MarcoRugeAss]

Of course. I am not one of the voices saying that Helio was all Reap & Sleep; I'm offering George up as an answer to why the family style may have gotten a different reputation than one would expect simply from examining Helio's exploits in isolation. The most interesting thing to me about Helio's record is the lack of choke or lock submission victories in his Vale Tudo matches.

 

[RTD1]

one thing is to give credit for his defense vs an actual grappler, not vs some dude who had no idea how to grapple, if most fights were grappling matches, vs dudes with no grappling skills, then wtf was helio doing to attract people?

These weren't high dollar professional sporting events. They were literally circus acts.

"In this tent we have the bearded lady, in this tent we have Helio Gracie grappling someone, 25 cent entry fee per tent, or $1 for access to all tents plus the donkey show later tonight."

I'm making that up but it's not far from what these were.

 

[RTD1]

Basically, Carlos and Helio started a trend which can be describe as the braziliasation of Judo.

They create rules when they could not lose against judo.

They created style vs style where they could not lose or could just draw and claim a moral victory.

In the book named Carlos Gracie, on of the first challenge was against capoeira and they made them wear kimono.

Even the capoeira community got upset because they fell that the capeoira reps were beginners and strikes were not allowed on the ground etc...

Edit: Zulu said in an interview that his first fight against Rickson was supposed to be vale tudo but they changed the rules to grappling match only 30 minutes before the fight started.

Choque is literally full of stories like this. Not only did the Capoeira guys have to wear gi tops, they were only allowed to kick not to punch or strike with any other bodypart. In one match they refused to wear gi tops and ended up settling on having to wear sailor outfits or something similar.

 

[RTD1]

1932: Helio's debut against Antonio Portugal.

Perfect example.

Antonio Portugal was an amateur lightweight boxer with a record of 5-12-1. Helio later described this fight as being against the "boxing champion of Brazil". Portugal was never a champion of anything, had a losing record against other scrubs, and was nearing retirement (he went on to box and lose a few more matches after the Helio fight).

 

[lechien]

Perfect example.

Antonio Portugal was an amateur lightweight boxer with a record of 5-12-1. Helio later described this fight as being against the "boxing champion of Brazil". Portugal was never a champion of anything, had a losing record against other scrubs, and was nearing retirement (he went on to box and lose a few more matches after the Helio fight).

yep,

Medhi also said the same thing. He joined the Gracie Academy as he could not find Judo in Rio.

THe Gracie said that a French Judoka Champion came to train under them.

Medhi said that they exagerated his repution for propaganda. He was no champion.

 

[Tom Hackett]

Yeah, Pedreira had described the issue with Antonio Portugal before. He wasn't a champion.

In fact, last year's documentary "Gracies & The Birth of Vale Tudo" perpetuated the myth of Antonio Portugal, boxing champion.

People exaggerate, especially in the fight game... they're even doing it on this thread

If anyone's interested, here's my full review of Choque. I published it last month at Caged Insider.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

So based on this new information, if someone asked you about the history of BJJ, what would you tell them?

Would it be something like:

Around 1900, a few Japanese immigrants brought Kodokan Judo (then called Kano Jujutsu) to Brazil. The five Gracie brothers (Carlos, Helio, George, Oswaldo, Gastao) studied with Brazilian students of the Japanese Judoka and some of them began doing submission grappling matches with practitioners of other styles found in Brazil such as Capoeira, Luta Romano, Catch as Catch Can/Luta Livre and Western Boxing.

Over time, the Gracies used their Judo training and added techniques from other styles to formulate their own version of Judo that they called Gracie Jiu Jitsu which consisted of basic throws and takedowns in order to get the opponent to the ground where they could establish safe positional control and work towards submissions if possible.

The next generation of Gracie's (Rolls, Rickson, Carlos Jr.) traveled to train and compete with American wrestlers, Sambo practitioners and Judoka which led to further refinement of the Gracie Jiu Jitsu style making into what we know it as today.

 

[Ckaa]

I would stick with Helio was a paralized child until he discovered leverage and gravity to submit everyone with moral victories

 

[MarcoRugeAss]

Yeah, Pedreira had described the issue with Antonio Portugal before. He wasn't a champion.

In fact, last year's documentary "Gracies & The Birth of Vale Tudo" perpetuated the myth of Antonio Portugal, boxing champion.

People exaggerate, especially in the fight game... they're even doing it on this thread

If anyone's interested, here's my full review of Choque. I published it last month at Caged Insider.

I enjoyed your review. One point I would like to make though is that the observation that Maeda was not physically present during Carlos' Jiu-Jitsu education was originally made By Jose Carius in his doctoral dissertation. I am hosting it on MixerMartialArtsHistory for your inspection, and to make it available to recent readers of Choque. https://mixedmartialartshistory.wordpress.com/2014/08/19/the-gracie-clan-and-the-making-of-brazilian-jiu%E2%80%90jitsu-national-identity-performance-and-culture-1801%E2%80%90199/

I will be going through the post and cleaning up the formatting over time.

Edit: the formatting is such a mess I am uploading the full pdf to Bullshido here: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16293&d=1408466169