Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 8] - MMA 'Cans', The Unsung Heroes...

TRYHARD 2001 said:
Decent memory.

Shoji was significantly better (and more entertaining) than Matsui. He still wasn't that good, and in no way deserved as many fights as he got in Pride, but...
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Already told ya about his [legit] Quality Wins..

But...The simple fact that he went the distance with Igor... should convince ya to give him props... wont ya agree?
 
gono btw said:
Already told ya about his [legit] Quality Wins..

But...The simple fact that he went the distance with Igor... should convince ya to give him props... wont ya agree?
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You never needed to tell me about those "quality wins"... I saw them live way back in time. Fact is, he edged out Braga, Mezger, and Stiebling. That's his entire claim to fame. Everything else involves him surviving against way bigger (and better) opponents like Igor and Coleman and losing in very entertaining fashion like his fights with the Rua boys. I guess you could throw in the fact he drew Renzo and KO'd Ismail, although the latter accomplishment doesn't really mean that much in retrospect. He tried really hard in his second fight with Filho? I dunno man, I'm reaching.

For whatever reason, you seem to have a bit of a crush on some of the lower-tier Japanese fighters of yesteryear, and that's fine, and in Shoji's case he was the best of that lower tier, but to me those guys were a bunch of decision machines that clogged up the undercard on Pride cards for years and prevented us seeing some far more entertaining and relevant encounters involving more deserving fighters and were really only there to appeal to the local fans ie they did not deserve to be in the big show. Thing is, there were quite a few excellent Japanese fighters that should have been given a shot over them but weren't till much later on (Kondo being the most glaring example).

Yeah, for what it's worth I do respect Shoji's balls to fight quite literally ANYONE he was put up against (that pudgy little guy fought Schilto ffs!) and going the distance with Igor, Renzo, and Coleman back then was no mean feat. He had the true fighter's spirit to be sure... if only he had the skills and athleticism to go along with it.
 
TRYHARD 2001 said:
You never needed to tell me about those "quality wins"... I saw them live way back in time. Fact is, he edged out Braga, Mezger, and Stiebling. That's his entire claim to fame. Everything else involves him surviving against way bigger (and better) opponents like Igor and Coleman and losing in very entertaining fashion like his fights with the Rua boys. I guess you could throw in the fact he drew Renzo and KO'd Ismail, although the latter accomplishment doesn't really mean that much in retrospect. He tried really hard in his second fight with Filho? I dunno man, I'm reaching.

For whatever reason, you seem to have a bit of a crush on some of the lower-tier Japanese fighters of yesteryear, and that's fine, and in Shoji's case he was the best of that lower tier, but to me those guys were a bunch of decision machines that clogged up the undercard on Pride cards for years and prevented us seeing some far more entertaining and relevant encounters involving more deserving fighters and were really only there to appeal to the local fans ie they did not deserve to be in the big show. Thing is, there were quite a few excellent Japanese fighters that should have been given a shot over them but weren't till much later on (Kondo being the most glaring example).

Yeah, for what it's worth I do respect Shoji's balls to fight quite literally ANYONE he was put up against (that pudgy little guy fought Schilto ffs!) and going the distance with Igor, Renzo, and Coleman back then was no mean feat. He had the true fighter's spirit to be sure... if only he had the skills and athleticism to go along with it.
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hmmm... no crush, not really what Im lookin´for when it comes to skill sets..

But I still hespect fighters like Shoji...He did have some skills on the ground though...

"Decision machines" coz... fights @ OW.

That was the tough reality for the smaller dudes back then.
 
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Even plenty of the fighters being listed in this thread as cans to help define who shouldn't be called cans, are themselves not cans.

A can is Bo Cantrell.

Not Wes Sims or Gilbert Yvel.
 
2004 account said:
Can is a losely thrown around word that should only be used to describe the real bottom of the barrel fighters, the ones that not only have a bad record but have barely any skills at fighting and never learn from their mistakes.


In pride some cans imo were

Matsui
Anjo
Takada
Shoji
Diet butcher


In the ufc :

John Alessio
Elvis Sinosic
Cody McKenzie
Wes sims
Steve Cantwell



And a can for both the ufc and pride:

Gilbert Yvel.
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Something I've noticed about a lot of these "cans" is how undersized they were. Old school MMA has a lot of guys with losing records, but these guys were also 180lbs going up against HWs. Holloway not having to worry about a weight cut is probably heavier than 180lbs, for reference. Most modern FWs and LWs would also have losing records if they had to go against LHWs and HWs.

EDIT: This just shows how good Sakuraba was. Dude was a pudgy 190lbs and probably had the same lean mass as current FWs.
 
A.S. Deep said:
Something I've noticed about a lot of these "cans" is how undersized they were. Old school MMA has a lot of guys with losing records, but these guys were also 180lbs going up against HWs. Holloway not having to worry about a weight cut is probably heavier than 180lbs, for reference. Most modern FWs and LWs would also have losing records if they had to go against LHWs and HWs.

EDIT: This just shows how good Sakuraba was. Dude was a pudgy 190lbs and probably had the same lean mass as current FWs.
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SAKU IS GOAT
 
A.S. Deep said:
Something I've noticed about a lot of these "cans" is how undersized they were. Old school MMA has a lot of guys with losing records, but these guys were also 180lbs going up against HWs. Holloway not having to worry about a weight cut is probably heavier than 180lbs, for reference. Most modern FWs and LWs would also have losing records if they had to go against LHWs and HWs.

EDIT: This just shows how good Sakuraba was. Dude was a pudgy 190lbs and probably had the same lean mass as current FWs.
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iwillbebackin3weeks said:
SAKU IS GOAT
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B eye.gif
 
Necrocrawler said:
Exactly

Shoji definitely wasn't a can. He was a good fighter at his Pride Days. Against regular competition, he won. Most of his losses came to "big names" like Coleman, Hendo and Jeremy Horn.

This concept of can is hard to define. You get guys like Julio Cesar Neves, whose cartel is impressive... But at what cost?

To end my point... Well... I believe Pride tried hard to get Hype with fighters from other Sports. I believe most of them didnt adapt themselves to the sport and the results were harsh. By saying that we get some names to do a quick analysis:

Yoshiaki Yatsu: Dude had legit Wrestling Credentials. What was the problem? Debuted at age 44.
Yuhi Sano: A fighter with pro wrestling background. Got subbed by bjj fighters. Outstriked by Strikers. Basically could not adapt.

For the last, we have Sentoryu. Some years ago, someone posted the link of the Pride Secret Files book, which ive read. There, basically said that Pride had this dream of creating a Superstar Fighter with Sumo background. Sentoryu ,who was also a response to K1's aquisition of Akebono, was probably the most promised since at the time, being considered "made for MMA" due to his muscle build and also was developing his striking skills at the time. Not only that, but he also managed to win his second bout in less than 30 seconds which hyped him even more. The results after that are... Well... the reason im talking about him in a "can" thread.
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How can i get a hold of the "secret files?"
 
2004 account said:
Can is a losely thrown around word that should only be used to describe the real bottom of the barrel fighters, the ones that not only have a bad record but have barely any skills at fighting and never learn from their mistakes.


In pride some cans imo were

Matsui
Anjo
Takada
Shoji
Diet butcher


In the ufc :

John Alessio
Elvis Sinosic
Cody McKenzie
Wes sims
Steve Cantwell



And a can for both the ufc and pride:

Gilbert Yvel.
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First response in this thread and many others proves OP right... lol. Most MMA fans seriously don't even know what a can is.

Good thread, btw. I completely agree with the main idea.
 
Americans love to call anything not american, can, shit, overrated etc.

But what about a cm punk? Doesnt get anymore canny than that.

And like mentioned before in this thread, the Japanese (and other oldschool fighters) didnt give a crap about weight, they fought way out of their weight classes to defend their honour.

I want to see all those ufc weight cutting pussies fight in their own weight class instead of beating up manlets for a winning record.
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@FKA is going to be pissed at you kids! How dare you say "Cans" are a Bellator mainstay ……...
 
there are definitely fighters that I will gladly call “can” (mostly I use the term “bum”) but it is more based on their skill set, or lack of 1 and not record. To me, I enjoy watching fighters who are skilled and show interesting techniques, even if their record is bad. Most MMA however know very little about technique and just judge whether a fighter is good by their record. As someone who wants to train fighters, I will take someone who is an interesting treasure trove of techniques over someone who constantly wins but never makes me do a double-take with an interesting guard pass, or new defensive maneuver etc. MMA fans rarely think in those terms though.

Look at boxing for example. Emmanuel Augustus is the perfect embodiment of this. He had a terrible record but my God, was that guy poetry in motion! Who isn’t a fan of boxing that hasn’t nerded out to him? In MMA, fighters like that hardly get the recognition they deserve. I would put Hideo Tokoro on that Augustus wave when it comes to MMA, but ask the average fight fan and he is a just a “can” to them.
 
Lmao at calling any international level pro a can especially anyone in ufc bellator etc (these are orgs that 90 percent of fighters will never get in)

The real cans are in national pro circuit
 
SBC said:
there are definitely fighters that I will gladly call “can” (mostly I use the term “bum”) but it is more based on their skill set, or lack of 1 and not record. To me, I enjoy watching fighters who are skilled and show interesting techniques, even if their record is bad. Most MMA however know very little about technique and just judge whether a fighter is good by their record. As someone who wants to train fighters, I will take someone who is an interesting treasure trove of techniques over someone who constantly wins but never makes me do a double-take with an interesting guard pass, or new defensive maneuver etc. MMA fans rarely think in those terms though.

Look at boxing for example. Emmanuel Augustus is the perfect embodiment of this. He had a terrible record but my God, was that guy poetry in motion! Who isn’t a fan of boxing that hasn’t nerded out to him? In MMA, fighters like that hardly get the recognition they deserve. I would put Hideo Tokoro on that Augustus wave when it comes to MMA, but ask the average fight fan and he is a just a “can” to them.
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BJ no.gif

Takase, Tokoro, Kikuta, Imanari... all legit grapplers. Almost always undersized too...
 
gono btw said:
Yvel has wins over:

Valentijn Overeem
Tsuyoshi Kohsaka
Semmy Schilt
Kiyoshi Tamura
Gary Goodridge
Carlos Barreto
Cheick Kongo
Pedro Rizzo
Ricco Rodriguez

not bad...

even showcased some surprising evolution through his career... Would you have imagined that he´d be able to pull an armbar vs Valentijn?

@ 4mn40

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Daniel Tabera was badly robbed vs Yvel depite giving up like 20lbs in weight, gono

Talking about unsung heroes... :)
 
gono btw said:
Yvel has wins over:

Valentijn Overeem
Tsuyoshi Kohsaka
Semmy Schilt
Kiyoshi Tamura
Gary Goodridge
Carlos Barreto
Cheick Kongo
Pedro Rizzo
Ricco Rodriguez

not bad...

even showcased some surprising evolution through his career... Would you have imagined that he´d be able to pull an armbar vs Valentijn?

@ 4mn40

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Yvel was a beast, shame him and Wand never got to run it back after the roundhouse to the balls!
 
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