News Demetrious Johnson bow and arrow chokes 6’3” 250 lbs Brown Belt Sherdogger at IBJJF Championships

krelianx said:
Show me several videos of Martyn tapping out purple belts please.

You know there is a difference between an average blue purple belt and MM, right?
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It's on the video where he gets ragdolled by the large brown belt. Also I believe in some video "Dr Mike" grappled with jujimufu another large fitness youtuber, and he also was manhandling much more experienced grapplers.

Of course there is, I think the distinction that this thread is only semi about.. that I don't like, is essentially the idea that training in general means you can beat x,y,z. Most guys who find success at a high level are very good right off of the bat.

I trained for years already(albeit 20 years ago) and have seen random 260 lbs 2/3 stripe whites "go too hard" and mangle purple and brown belts who were 190ish. Of course there were random amazing black belts 140 lbs who could beat them, but you would get the sense watching those sessions(or at least I would) that if punches or slamming were involved the big guys would likely win.

But I definitely don't wanna argue with a true sherdog veterano. Especially if the krelian in your name is a reference to xenogears :)
 
MotorCityCobra said:
It's on the video where he gets ragdolled by the large brown belt. Also I believe in some video "Dr Mike" grappled with jujimufu another large fitness youtuber, and he also was manhandling much more experienced grapplers.

Of course there is, I think the distinction that this thread is only semi about.. that I don't like, is essentially the idea that training in general means you can beat x,y,z. Most guys who find success at a high level are very good right off of the bat.

I trained for years already(albeit 20 years ago) and have seen random 260 lbs 2/3 stripe whites "go too hard" and mangle purple and brown belts who were 190ish. Of course there were random amazing black belts 140 lbs who could beat them, but you would get the sense watching those sessions(or at least I would) that if punches or slamming were involved the big guys would likely win.

But I definitely don't wanna argue with a true sherdog veterano. Especially if the krelian in your name is a reference to xenogears :)
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Couldn't find the video you're referencing. Only thing I found was him drilling moves with blues and purples but any live roll I find he gers handled.

Do you have a link?
 
GreatSaintGuillotine said:
Couldn't find the video you're referencing. Only thing I found was him drilling moves with blues and purples but any live roll I find he gers handled.

Do you have a link?
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The main video where he rolls with Edwin (a champion bjj black belt who he was moving around pretty easily and trying to avoid going hard) , the big brown belt who threw him around like a ragdoll, he rolls with a nearly same size black guy who is a blue belt and slams him and submits him twice.

Also consider this was supposedly his first time grappling formally. The other one apparently was jujimufu but same idea applies.

Videos with large aggressive strong people trying to really go hard and getting handled by smaller guys do exist, but typically only with the elite, and any time punches or slamming is involved its typically ugly even if they find the submission.

Whenever I get in these discussions I see random videos with rener Gracie handling some nfl player, but rener Gracie is actually a big dude.

I've seen 270 lbs rookies just smother, toss around and lay on pretty high level grapplers who were smaller, and I'm pretty sure everyone who trains has as well, especially no-gi. This rarely happens just due to etiquette but I feel like it creates false sense of security.
 
Bullitt68 said:
For all the "See, small guys can beat the fuck out of big guys" posts in here, let's remember that there was no striking here. That can change shit real fast. I mean, here's little Jerry Bohlander with ten times the skill that arm wrestler Gary Goodridge had at this point in his career at UFC 8...



...not to mention what Dan Severn did to poor little Anthony Macias at UFC 4 without even needing to strike...



It's not as simple in either direction as "Size>Skill" or "Skill>Size." You should be able to acknowledge that size can be a tremendous asset and can easily - and has often been - the difference-maker at the same time as you acknowledge that skill can make up for a lot, even a disparity in size/strength.

But kudos to Mighty Mouse on the bad ass performance. Old schoolers will no doubt recall Marcelo Garcia's defeat of the much larger Ricco Rodriguez, who was very skilled and particularly good at leglocks but who still got tapped with a heel hook by Marcelo the submission wizard.

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Overall athleticism matters a lot and can overcome a size differential. Whenever we see "manlets" overcoming a big size advantage its usually some freak like Marcelo Garcia or DJ. Of course they're going to style on some dude who might be bigger but is less athletic. Jacare also beat Werdum 14-2 in BJJ back in the day but as much as I love Werdum he seems a lot less athletic than Jacare who is a freak of nature.

I also think its not just overall skill but how some skillsets adapt better to going up in weight. Henderson fought bigger guys throughout his career but his chin, KO power, and wrestling were a great equalizer. Jack Slack had a video on Marcelo Garcia forever ago where he argued that his ability to armdrag into back takes and snatch up guillotines helped him overcome a size disadvantage.
 
Walk into any High School folk style wrestling room across America and watch kids far lighter just destroy the vast majority of guys at 195 and above. My son wrestled 160, destroyed our 195 (who walked about 210 to 220 off season) who was a one time state champ and one time runner up day in day out in practice. My son had zero state championships, but multi time qualifier and medalist.

Similarly a 132 pounder beat the hell out of my son everyday, other kid was a four timer, size means nothing unless the requisite skill, athleticism, and time spent training comes with that size.

Untrained people will never, ever understand that without it being demonstrated harshly. Some of my worst whoopings in BJJ were from little dudes thirty and forty pounds lighter. Humbling and motivational.
 
we need to see dj vs francis nggano in boxing. we need to find out once and for all what the goat manlet can do to an unskilled, hulking freak of nature.
 
NoStoneUnturned said:
Walk into any High School folk style wrestling room across America and watch kids far lighter just destroy the vast majority of guys at 195 and above. My son wrestled 160, destroyed our 195 (who walked about 210 to 220 off season) who was a one time state champ and one time runner up day in day out in practice. My son had zero state championships, but multi time qualifier and medalist.

Similarly a 132 pounder beat the hell out of my son everyday, other kid was a four timer, size means nothing unless the requisite skill, athleticism, and time spent training comes with that size.

Untrained people will never, ever understand that without it being demonstrated harshly. Some of my worst whoopings in BJJ were from little dudes thirty and forty pounds lighter. Humbling and motivational.
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Hate to beat a dead horse here, but do you think that 132 pounder beats the 190 lbs guy as easily?

30 lbs and 90lbs of lean mass are a huge huge difference. When I was 135 lbs I submitted tons of 250+ lbs guys, but occasionally there would be an actually strong athletic 180 lbs person even if they were a beginner and I felt like I couldn't do anything.

Although the weight is important it always seemed to me strength was even more important. Alot of big guys are still weak. I've seen a video of Bradley martyn overhead pressing 3 plates and squatting 3 plates for reps standing on a skateboard. That level of strength on anyone is hard to handle for a 200 lbs guy...let alone a 150 lbs one.

You confident your son could beat jj watt in wrestling??

And don't forget Dan Gable used to run through legitimate heavyweights in training, but I view that more as a one or two off situation than the norm.
 
MotorCityCobra said:
Hate to beat a dead horse here, but do you think that 132 pounder beats the 190 lbs guy as easily?

30 lbs and 90lbs of lean mass are a huge huge difference. When I was 135 lbs I submitted tons of 250+ lbs guys, but occasionally there would be an actually strong athletic 180 lbs person even if they were a beginner and I felt like I couldn't do anything.

Although the weight is important it always seemed to me strength was even more important. Alot of big guys are still weak. I've seen a video of Bradley martyn overhead pressing 3 plates and squatting 3 plates for reps standing on a skateboard. That level of strength on anyone is hard to handle for a 200 lbs guy...let alone a 150 lbs one.

You confident your son could beat jj watt in wrestling??

And don't forget Dan Gable used to run through legitimate heavyweights in training, but I view that more as a one or two off situation than the norm.
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Also I'd like to add some people just have shit body awareness and some people instinctively know how to manoeuvre and balance their body
 
MotorCityCobra said:
The main video where he rolls with Edwin (a champion bjj black belt who he was moving around pretty easily and trying to avoid going hard) , the big brown belt who threw him around like a ragdoll, he rolls with a nearly same size black guy who is a blue belt and slams him and submits him twice.

Also consider this was supposedly his first time grappling formally. The other one apparently was jujimufu but same idea applies.

Videos with large aggressive strong people trying to really go hard and getting handled by smaller guys do exist, but typically only with the elite, and any time punches or slamming is involved its typically ugly even if they find the submission.

Whenever I get in these discussions I see random videos with rener Gracie handling some nfl player, but rener Gracie is actually a big dude.

I've seen 270 lbs rookies just smother, toss around and lay on pretty high level grapplers who were smaller, and I'm pretty sure everyone who trains has as well, especially no-gi. This rarely happens just due to etiquette but I feel like it creates false sense of security.
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I found him vs the blue belt. That was a good watch. They coached him through positions and neither were going too crazy. He listened to instructor very well and got the taps like they drilled. Can't find him against the Purple you mentioned.

I've never seen 270 guys have a huge amount of success against out comp purples and up. The older guys for sure. Blue belts for sure. But even then they tend to be the nail more than the hammer. Once they start picking up technique tho...oof. bad times. Size and athleticism will never hurt in any kind of fight. I just personally haven't seen it ever nullify skill to the degree that some claim.

I'm biased tho. I'm light and rock open weight frequently. I definitely have some confirmation biased based on my and my teams success
 
GreatSaintGuillotine said:
I found him vs the blue belt. That was a good watch. They coached him through positions and neither were going too crazy. He listened to instructor very well and got the taps like they drilled. Can't find him against the Purple you mentioned.

I've never seen 270 guys have a huge amount of success against out comp purples and up. The older guys for sure. Blue belts for sure. But even then they tend to be the nail more than the hammer. Once they start picking up technique tho...oof. bad times. Size and athleticism will never hurt in any kind of fight. I just personally haven't seen it ever nullify skill to the degree that some claim.

I'm biased tho. I'm light and rock open weight frequently. I definitely have some confirmation biased based on my and my teams success
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People in general who compete are small percentage of people who train. And it doesn't nullify skill in pure grappling(or pure striking more that matter) but as we have seen time and time again guys like Derrick Lewis can easily escape or survive under 250 lbs black belts and likely would get submitted in a bjj class by 160 lbs unathletic purple belts+

I think the combination of holding and hitting(in "real" fighting)along with slamming and scrambling make it very very difficult for even high level guys to be able to impose their grappling or even fitness advantage in any type of real fight scenario with someone who is literally 80 lbs heavier than them and not a pussy.

Bj Penn had a granite chin for 155 lbs even fighting up to 200+, and some 230+ lbs slob creamed him with one punch(in a real fight) and yes I know Penn assaulted him later and "won" that time.

I think at a certain level of size and strength disadvantage, actual technical fight skill is usually out of the window. It's why guys like Francis ngannou can train a few years in boxing and have high school varsity level wrestling and beat 99.9% of guys. The gap in skills between ngannou and Cain Velasquez may be comparable to a beginner and advanced trainee, yet superior strength and natural ability and the fight was ended in 10-20 seconds.

I think 100s of nba/nfl players would have same result against majority of ufc roster 170 and down unfortunately.
 
MotorCityCobra said:
People in general who compete are small percentage of people who train. And it doesn't nullify skill in pure grappling(or pure striking more that matter) but as we have seen time and time again guys like Derrick Lewis can easily escape or survive under 250 lbs black belts and likely would get submitted in a bjj class by 160 lbs unathletic purple belts+

I think the combination of holding and hitting(in "real" fighting)along with slamming and scrambling make it very very difficult for even high level guys to be able to impose their grappling or even fitness advantage in any type of real fight scenario with someone who is literally 80 lbs heavier than them and not a pussy.

Bj Penn had a granite chin for 155 lbs even fighting up to 200+, and some 230+ lbs slob creamed him with one punch(in a real fight) and yes I know Penn assaulted him later and "won" that time.

I think at a certain level of size and strength disadvantage, actual technical fight skill is usually out of the window. It's why guys like Francis ngannou can train a few years in boxing and have high school varsity level wrestling and beat 99.9% of guys. The gap in skills between ngannou and Cain Velasquez may be comparable to a beginner and advanced trainee, yet superior strength and natural ability and the fight was ended in 10-20 seconds.

I think 100s of nba/nfl players would have same result against majority of ufc roster 170 and down unfortunately.
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Yeah for sure. What we look at the majority if the time is the most extreme examples available. I'd say in most cases, skill beats size with a reasonable range (bigger the skill diff bigger the range). I think the big thing that really matters here is you have to be big, athletic, and coordinated. If you're big and strong for nothing then you're a liability to yourself. But if you're a D1 or pro athlete that's a different story.

We have a guy who had a D1 football scholarship and got bullied by most of the colored belts...up until about a year later when he had solid fundamentals to back up his athleticism. Now it's up to the comp team to keep him humble hahaha.

When strikes are involved everything gets way more complicated. Chin, cardio, age, etc. become factors. It's a cluster fuck of factors that makes striking difficult to predict even at similar weights.
 
But some people actually believe Bradley Martyn would beat him. It's really that sad.
 
NoStoneUnturned said:
Walk into any High School folk style wrestling room across America and watch kids far lighter just destroy the vast majority of guys at 195 and above. My son wrestled 160, destroyed our 195 (who walked about 210 to 220 off season) who was a one time state champ and one time runner up day in day out in practice. My son had zero state championships, but multi time qualifier and medalist.

Similarly a 132 pounder beat the hell out of my son everyday, other kid was a four timer, size means nothing unless the requisite skill, athleticism, and time spent training comes with that size.

Untrained people will never, ever understand that without it being demonstrated harshly. Some of my worst whoopings in BJJ were from little dudes thirty and forty pounds lighter. Humbling and motivational.
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Around 132 and 138 are probably the deepest weight classes in HS wrestling - like 155 in adult MMA. So a kid winning the big tournaments at that weight is probably best P4P on his team. Our starting varsity 132 pounder was the most skilled guy on our team and while size is always a factor, he could handle everyone up to around 165, which was crazy considering that was 5 weight classes above him.
 
MotorCityCobra said:
People in general who compete are small percentage of people who train. And it doesn't nullify skill in pure grappling(or pure striking more that matter) but as we have seen time and time again guys like Derrick Lewis can easily escape or survive under 250 lbs black belts and likely would get submitted in a bjj class by 160 lbs unathletic purple belts+

I think the combination of holding and hitting(in "real" fighting)along with slamming and scrambling make it very very difficult for even high level guys to be able to impose their grappling or even fitness advantage in any type of real fight scenario with someone who is literally 80 lbs heavier than them and not a pussy.

Bj Penn had a granite chin for 155 lbs even fighting up to 200+, and some 230+ lbs slob creamed him with one punch(in a real fight) and yes I know Penn assaulted him later and "won" that time.

I think at a certain level of size and strength disadvantage, actual technical fight skill is usually out of the window. It's why guys like Francis ngannou can train a few years in boxing and have high school varsity level wrestling and beat 99.9% of guys. The gap in skills between ngannou and Cain Velasquez may be comparable to a beginner and advanced trainee, yet superior strength and natural ability and the fight was ended in 10-20 seconds.

I think 100s of nba/nfl players would have same result against majority of ufc roster 170 and down unfortunately.
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Size and strength are always a factor but you're GREATLY underselling how skilled "guys like" Derrick Lewis and Ngannou are. Those two are incredible athletes for their size and they both trained wrestling and BJJ for MMA for years. You're talking like they're meatheads who only train bench and bicep curls.

And if you seriously believe that "100's of nba/nfl players" with no combat sports training would KTFO the "majority of ufc roster 170 and down," I don't know what to say. Most UFC WWs walk at 190 to 200 lbs.
 
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