Do you view Karate and TKD in the same way?

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

I feel that ITF TKD still has a distinctly karate-like vibe to it. WTF TKD, however, has traveled so far from the source that it has differentiated itself quite significantly from its Shotokan roots.

TKD creators intentionally made it this way becasue in the beginning karate and tkd looked even more similar.

They wanted to popularize the sport quickly, and in order to do that they wanted it ot gain Olympic status. In order for TKD to get inot the Olympics, it had to be significantly different from karate and the WTF organization created a style to get as far away from karate as they could.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

Tkd more sport
Karate more self defense.

Yep theres definitely no sport karate whatsoever.

 

[peanut66]

its all in the footwork , tkd is a more fluid art , more combination kicking , more countering , tkd fighting distance and range are the major difference ,, traditional karate is much more rigid movements , in close , power shots so to speak , the foorwork is not as complex ,

im sure you all realize that tkd is a hybrid of karate ,so there are alot of similarities , but when you see axe kick , spinning back kicks , tornado kicks ect , they all were tkd kicks which karate did not have , they are now used in karate but before karate was only about mid and low kicks , power kicks ,,

im sure all the karate guys are going to jump my statements, but they know its the truth.

 

[peanut66]

Given TKD has roots in Shotokan Karate, you have to at least acknowledge they are similar in my opinion. The style of Tae Kwon do I was introduced too was very Karate like, there was no discussion about point fighting, it was all essentially self defense based. My instructor wore a white belt, and when I asked him what belt he actually was he said he would leave that for me to decide.

His instructor came to class once, a short and very stout Korean man who apparently had a red belt and was trained at a prestigious school in Korea. Though that is as little information as I can recall from the time.

Today, I find myself wanting to train in Shotokan karate more so than go back to my original roots of Tae Kwon Do, but the closest school is a little out of my driving range to keep up with on a consistent basis.

a white belt instructor and a red belt stout korean man ?

wtf tkd ranking system === white / yellow / green / blue / red / black / 1st dan -10 dan black belt ,,, there are stripes in between

 

[Jukai]

its all in the footwork , tkd is a more fluid art , more combination kicking , more countering , tkd fighting distance and range are the major difference ,, traditional karate is much more rigid movements , in close , power shots so to speak , the foorwork is not as complex ,

im sure you all realize that tkd is a hybrid of karate ,so there are alot of similarities , but when you see axe kick , spinning back kicks , tornado kicks ect , they all were tkd kicks which karate did not have , they are now used in karate but before karate was only about mid and low kicks , power kicks ,,

im sure all the karate guys are going to jump my statements, but they know its the truth.

I've highlighted the areas which are incorrect. Please see me after class, peanut.

 

[Flexwave2003]

a white belt instructor and a red belt stout korean man ?

wtf tkd ranking system === white / yellow / green / blue / red / black / 1st dan -10 dan black belt ,,, there are stripes in between

Okay, you got me. I was making the entire thing up. Maybe I should have checked out what a white belt was before I started to bullshit the entire forum?

I shall hang my head in shame lol.

 

[peanut66]

I've highlighted the areas which are incorrect. Please see me after class, peanut.

do a little research my friend and see me after class ,

 

[Jukai]

do a little research my friend and see me after class ,

alright.. well, let's start.

WTF Olympic bout:

ITF World Championship bout:

WKF World Championship bout:

JKA World Championship bout:


From those clips, do you see any type of difference in the countering? And do you really think the TKD practitioners have better footwork? I randomly pulled these from youtube, went with the first kumite clip I could find... if you think I've been disingenuous with the representation of either art, please post a video of your choice.

Furthermore, Taekwondo didn't exist until the late 1930s, early 1940s... so I assume you're either stating that Karate took things like the axe kick and spinning back kick post 1950s... or that Karate took it from the old arts of subak, or taekkyeon... The first one is definitely not true, the second one immensely dubious. I've never heard anything of the sort, and I can't find anything about it on google. A source would be greatly appreciated.

As for the "Karate is a series of mid and low kicks" well, no, certainly not in Shotokan which is what this debate is about. It does seem that in older styles of shorin and shorei karates, there was a lack of higher kicks as the only head kick in kata that I can remember was in Nijushiho. Specifically, there's a lot of debate centering on the origin of the roundhouse kick in Karate. I've heard things such as it was a more traditional Okinawan technique and so it didn't have to be charted into Kata (since that was mostly about describing harder, streetwise techniques) to the roundhouse kick being taken from Muay Thai after a few Thai boxers fought some karates in the early 20th century.

Actually, the more I think about it, the idea that Karate got some of its arsenal of high kicks from the older subak arts during the occupation of Korea is a really cool twist in history. But I think if that was a viable idea, it would be more widespread and I'd actually see it on a basic google search.

 

[Hotora86]

I'll answer the thread title first: absolutely not! They are completely different martial arts and should be treated as such. Of course they have some similarities since Karate (esp. Shotokan) has influenced TKD but the same can be said about Judo/Sambo/BJJ and we don't treat them like they're just versions of one martial art.

Moreover, it could even be argued that different styles of Karate (ex. Shotokan and Kyokushin) have become so vastly different over time that we should always distinguish between them... but I guess that would be too much to ask.

I'll stick around to see the other responses.

 

[peanut66]

alright.. well, let's start.

WTF Olympic bout:

ITF World Championship bout:

WKF World Championship bout:

JKA World Championship bout:


From those clips, do you see any type of difference in the countering? And do you really think the TKD practitioners have better footwork? I randomly pulled these from youtube, went with the first kumite clip I could find... if you think I've been disingenuous with the representation of either art, please post a video of your choice.

Furthermore, Taekwondo didn't exist until the late 1930s, early 1940s... so I assume you're either stating that Karate took things like the axe kick and spinning back kick post 1950s... or that Karate took it from the old arts of subak, or taekkyeon... The first one is definitely not true, the second one immensely dubious. I've never heard anything of the sort, and I can't find anything about it on google. A source would be greatly appreciated.

As for the "Karate is a series of mid and low kicks" well, no, certainly not in Shotokan which is what this debate is about. It does seem that in older styles of shorin and shorei karates, there was a lack of higher kicks as the only head kick in kata that I can remember was in Nijushiho. Specifically, there's a lot of debate centering on the origin of the roundhouse kick in Karate. I've heard things such as it was a more traditional Okinawan technique and so it didn't have to be charted into Kata (since that was mostly about describing harder, streetwise techniques) to the roundhouse kick being taken from Muay Thai after a few Thai boxers fought some karates in the early 20th century.

Actually, the more I think about it, the idea that Karate got some of its arsenal of high kicks from the older subak arts during the occupation of Korea is a really cool twist in history. But I think if that was a viable idea, it would be more widespread and I'd actually see it on a basic google search.

i see what the problem is . you are using the internet as your source of information , rather than 10th dan , elderly blackbelts who are also blackbelts in karate and judo and akido and have competed in all thise arts world wide , such as my grand master and instructors have been

the videos you posted showed my point quite well actually , all those videos are after the change in karate has occurred and a more flowing version like you see in tae kwon do .

why dont you look up karate from the 1950 - 1960 era , before the tae kwon do influence occured ,, or if andy hug was alive , ask him who showed him that incredible axe kick he had.

as for seeing you after class , when i go into the club tkd club i belong to , 5th and 6th degree blackbelts who are the instructors now ,shake my hand and call me sir , because i taught them since they were white belts . my knowledge of karate is limited , but my tkd roots are secure .

 

[Flexwave2003]

i see what the problem is . you are using the internet as your source of information , rather than 10th dan , elderly blackbelts who are also blackbelts in karate and judo and akido and have competed in all thise arts world wide , such as my grand master and instructors have been

the videos you posted showed my point quite well actually , all those videos are after the change in karate has occurred and a more flowing version like you see in tae kwon do .

why dont you look up karate from the 1950 - 1960 era , before the tae kwon do influence occured ,, or if andy hug was alive , ask him who showed him that incredible axe kick he had.

as for seeing you after class , when i go into the club tkd club i belong to , 5th and 6th degree blackbelts who are the instructors now ,shake my hand and call me sir , because i taught them since they were white belts . my knowledge of karate is limited , but my tkd roots are secure .

Sorry, none of this is enough to convince me the axe kick does not have origins in Karate. In addition to training with white belt instructors, I have also trained with 10th degree black belts of some repute who routinely said questionable things.

Can we see some sources on the internet to confirm any of this, or are we suppost to just take your word for it?

 

[Hotora86]

as for seeing you after class , when i go into the club tkd club i belong to , 5th and 6th degree blackbelts who are the instructors now ,shake my hand and call me sir , because i taught them since they were white belts . my knowledge of karate is limited , but my tkd roots are secure .

Nice.
And you are ... who exactly?

 

[peanut66]

i see where this is going , i gave my opinion on the difference between tkd and karate ,

im not into pissing matches , or trying to make myself sound like someone im not , a good old fashioned debate is nice but that is not what this is turning into ,, peace out

 

[Hotora86]

i see where this is going , i gave my opinion on the difference between tkd and karate ,

im not into pissing matches , or trying to make myself sound like someone im not , a good old fashioned debate is nice but that is not what this is turning into ,, peace out

With all due respect, I'd really love to know who You exactly are, what organization You belong to and who Your teachers were/are since You present Yourself as an expert on the subject. Perhaps we may all benefit from a visit to Your Dojang.

 

[Discipulus]

I think they're asking you to provide sources, not start a pissing match. Your claims are a little dubious, so some research would help. The fact that a black belt said it is not really enough. I doubt that he has earned a black belt in history.

 

[Irn Bru Freak]

Why are we focusing on the sparring/sporting elements of the system? They only count for about 5% of the entire system.

If you want to focus on the sport/piont fighting then there is little difference, mostly in the rule sets of the competitions. That's all.

Would it not be more interesting to focus on the all round fighting syllabus contained in the stand up grappling, close range strikes, throws & takedowns, ground fighting, chokes & strangles, arm locks, leg & ankle locks, neck wrenches, finger locks, wrist locks

Debating anything else would only display a superficial understanding of the fighting system.

 

[Irn Bru Freak]

And in regard to the pissing contest, I bet you had smart arses in ancient greece attempting axe kicks in the midst of their planktration matches.

It's like trying to copyright the punch, humans since day dot have been swinging arms and legs about. No one style invented anything. It's idiotic to think the axe kick is only 60 years old when humans have been trying to work out the best way to kick and punch each other for over 100,000 years.

 

[Hotora86]

Why are we focusing on the sparring/sporting elements of the system? They only count for about 5% of the entire system.

If you want to focus on the sport/piont fighting then there is little difference, mostly in the rule sets of the competitions. That's all.

Would it not be more interesting to focus on the all round fighting syllabus contained in the stand up grappling, close range strikes, throws & takedowns, ground fighting, chokes & strangles, arm locks, leg & ankle locks, neck wrenches, finger locks, wrist locks

Debating anything else would only display a superficial understanding of the fighting system.

I think that the problem with discussing differences based on the syllabus is this: all styles of Karate and TKD share many techniques but there is no way of knowing for sure if these were transplanted from one art to the other or developed individually. Arguing about it would lead to nowhere IMHO.

Just recently I had a short discussion with someone on Sherdog about trips and throws in Karate - some of them probably came from the Okinawan wrestling art Tegumi, some were probably taken from Judo but it's almost impossible to know which are which. At least I don't think we have enough time, valid sources and research capabilities to actually find out.

On the other hand we can go all-out philosophy and discuss the strategy, tactics and "do" of every particular art and style - they vary greatly and the emerging / passing of ideas is relatively traceable.

I guess there's plenty of things we can cover in this topic.

 

[Jukai]

i see what the problem is . you are using the internet as your source of information , rather than 10th dan , elderly blackbelts who are also blackbelts in karate and judo and akido and have competed in all thise arts world wide , such as my grand master and instructors have been

the videos you posted showed my point quite well actually , all those videos are after the change in karate has occurred and a more flowing version like you see in tae kwon do .

why dont you look up karate from the 1950 - 1960 era , before the tae kwon do influence occured ,, or if andy hug was alive , ask him who showed him that incredible axe kick he had.

Drats! You got me!

If only the 1950s JKA karate tournaments were filmed with the basic video cameras they had back then, and then placed on the internet for us to compare...

Oh wait!




Let's see... high kicks, check. Immense dependency on complex footwork to avoid attacks, oh yeah, probably a bigger check then than now. An art focused on counter-attack? Big check.

Also, while digging this stuff up, I found really old footage of a personal Shotokan hero of mine, Abe Sensei... Went to two seminars to train under him, and had the honor of him sweeping me on my ass to show that my stance wasn't rooted enough when practicing bunkai for Hangetsu. Oh, those were the days.
Anyway, here he is in this old 60s film, showing how to counter... roundhouse kicks to the head!


Oh, what I'd give to get my hands on the Enoeda vs Abe tape =(

As for the Andy Hug namedrop, I'm particularly awed by this one. Hug didn't practice Shotokan or any of the traditional JKA styles. He practiced Kyokushin, which is mostly a naha-te style Karate which came out in the 1960s and took some influences from Shotokan anddddd... Muay Thai!

As a 9th/10th degree black belt in street Taekwondo, you should already know some of this, Peanut.

 

[Irn Bru Freak]

I think that the problem with discussing differences based on the syllabus is this: all styles of Karate and TKD share many techniques but there is no way of knowing for sure if these were transplanted from one art to the other or developed individually. Arguing about it would lead to nowhere IMHO.

Just recently I had a short discussion with someone on Sherdog about trips and throws in Karate - some of them probably came from the Okinawan wrestling art Tegumi, some were probably taken from Judo but it's almost impossible to know which are which. At least I don't think we have enough time, valid sources and research capabilities to actually find out.

On the other hand we can go all-out philosophy and discuss the strategy, tactics and "do" of every particular art and style - they vary greatly and the emerging / passing of ideas is relatively traceable.

I guess there's plenty of things we can cover in this topic.

My point is most of the Japanese Karate styles use Heian as a basis for their syllabus, with a bunch of other Kata further down the line. Hence if we were to define stylistic differences between Karate and TKD why not look at the applications, proper applications, taught in their basic Kata (ie 0 - Black Belt). So Shotokan compared to Goju would be a comparison between applications found in Heian/Tekki to Gekasai Dai Ni, Gekasai Dai Ichi and Sanchin

The sparring aspect is a superficial aspect only 60 or so year old, whats the point endlessly discussing that? If you compare the sparring competitions of a style you're actually just comparing the rules of the sparring compeition of each style??

If we do this we can see the actual differences in systems, rather than the endless idiotic differences in 'styles' we see like shotokan like having lower stances, wado having a more circular look .... that to me is differences in the training methodology, which is different to the content of the 'style'

Infact, I hate the word 'style' style to me is a collection of combat systems (Kata/Quan fa) understood by the person who created a particular school or martial arts. Each Kata or group of Kata to me is one combat system in itself. The person who leads a school knows X Kata that contain a variation of techniques and strategy. In previous times the person leading the school would pick one type of combat system and teach one person, and they would learn it all, and then pick one person to continue the school by teaching them the all of the combat systems.

I'll go get a coffee ...