Ever wanted to learn a martial art that is largely considered "ineffective?"

[barnowl]

But im talking in the sense of positional control and escapes from a less dominant position


For example in discussions like this things like obscure fukien Dog style are brought up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyj9PH_f9JE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAK7fSWnPgs

you see that its precisely what i said. a variety of different ways to get up from the floor when knocked down or a few minor ways to attack the opponent when knocked down

a two man form addresses some submissions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OQgm-kQJck

But they were very impractical and overly fancy not to mention again there is no side control, mount, taking the back guard etc,etc or how to escape these.

That would be becuase the style is mostly a gound and pound system. It is not a pure grappling system. As whole it does address the basic positions and looks for either a get away or a top position for GnP. Most of the good practioners should be doing basic grappling to get a feel for all positions. But yes the forms are abit overly fancy.

 

[barnowl]

I always thought Shuai Jiao is a catch all term for wrestling in Chinese. Like it literally means wrestling.

Oh I would like to try some Shuai Jiao

I live in a heavily Chinese part of NYC, and there is no sanshou, or shuai Jiao. There is Kung Fu schools, but I don't think they spar.

If there is a Chinese fencing art, I would like to try this too. I cannot see why they don't. The Chinese have been fighting with swords as long as Greeks and Italians. How did they practice?

The closets chinese sord art to fencing, I also fenced, would be the gim. In fact the training is very close between the too. Finding a pure gim school or one that does alot of live sparring will be hard. We trained with both sparring and after a point live steel flow drills. Nothing scarier than having live steel passing within millimeters of un protected skin.

 

[Nicslagan]

I thought there is some BJJ academies in China like the one in Beijing:

http://www.graciechina.com/#!gracie-elite

http://www.bjjbeijing.com/

There might be but read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_na

BJJ came from Chin Na. They teach Chin Na at Shaolin temple. You are only allowed in the class after you take Shaolin Long Fist and with the approval of the Sifu. Chin Na is effective for groundfighting.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

There might be but read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_na

BJJ came from Chin Na. They teach Chin Na at Shaolin temple. You are only allowed in the class after you take Shaolin Long Fist and with the approval of the Sifu. Chin Na is effective for groundfighting.

The wiki page references one of those chin-na books that I have seen. And from what I have seen of the contents, there is mostly standing submission like in Shootboxing.

Do you have any other evidence of matwork in Chinese arts? Is there a vid I can see?

 

[Ughugh]

Not TMA related but I used to compete in table tennis at a fairly high national level when I was doing boxing because we had a table tennis hall and team literally next doors. I felt it gave me a great low impact training for balance, speed, timing, movement, angles, reaction, rhythm, levels and pivoting that translated perfectly to the ring and gave me a great advantage on my opponents. I began boxing as a gritty inside fighter with little or no KO power and table tennis really developed my game into a hybrid and also allowed me to drop guys consistently from special angles. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants a second sport that fits nicely with striking based combat sports. It really loosens up your whole system.

 

[Sansara]

I am only lifting and doing cardio workout for already 2 consecutive years and i am desesperetly craving to go back to martial arts.

I stopped at purple belt at shotokan and i want to go back to it and at least get to shodan, also i really want to try out judo and go back to boxing ( i trained for 1 year).

I tried Aikido a long time ago and i didnt liked it.

 

[Nicslagan]

The wiki page references one of those chin-na books that I have seen. And from what I have seen of the contents, there is mostly standing submission like in Shootboxing.

Do you have any other evidence of matwork in Chinese arts? Is there a vid I can see?

Did you read the wiki page where it says that they teach both standing and grappling on the ground. The books you find will show you up to around a brown belt level. They teach most of the ground stuff later. Here is one. Does it make sense that they would have such and extensive system with all kinds of weapons and not have any ground? Don't you think that the students there ask the same questions you do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RuuY63AEps

 

[Nicslagan]

Not TMA related but I used to compete in table tennis at a fairly high national level when I was doing boxing because we had a table tennis hall and team literally next doors. I felt it gave me a great low impact training for balance, speed, timing, movement, angles, reaction, rhythm, levels and pivoting that translated perfectly to the ring and gave me a great advantage on my opponents. I began boxing as a gritty inside fighter with little or no KO power and table tennis really developed my game into a hybrid and also allowed me to drop guys consistently from special angles. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants a second sport that fits nicely with striking based combat sports. It really loosens up your whole system.

You are right. It is training your twitch muscles from different angles.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Lol, BJJ ultimately came from Chin Na branch of Kung Fu.

he Chinese have a style of Kung Fu for all types and positions of fighting. They have the most extensive and detailed system of all the ones I have seen.

alright then feel free to show me a kung fu guard pass or an escape from when someones taken your back

 

[cuality]

And another thing about Shuai Jiao and other folk styles from other countries like Boke or Kuresh is that all you need is to get the other guy to touch his knees to the ground to get the takedown. If self defense on the battle field is where these folk wrestling comes from there still ought to be some follow up.

In self defense, being on your knees is not exactly a helpless and vulnerable position. You are quite stable, and can spring up or roll away. You are also now underneath the thrower. You can strike his nuts or grab and twist his nuts, or you can still go for a takedown. If you have a shiv or something you can stab his inner thigh and hope you get that big vein.

On the battlefield with blades, being on your knees means you are ducked under every swinging sword. Plus you can still attack the thrower or tripper in many ways from you knees. You are not that helpless, and the guy standing still needs to be aware of what you can do.

If you are on your back I can understand because there is less ways you can attack. But if you trip someone onto their knees, you still need a way to finish them off.

Modern wrestling rules isn't meant to replicate ancient battlefield. The theory and practice is there, but it's a one on one sport without weapons, not many vs many with weapons. In 'battlefield', you are in formation and if you fall, I'm guessing you either: get trampled by advancing troops, or even your own. Or get finished off by advancing troops. Many armies used tight phalanx type formations. Sometimes quicker blitzes if the numbers are there. I won't rule out the possibly a little bit of crazy braveheart stuff, but the point is to advance forward in formation. Of course the mongolians used a lot of 'cheap' tactics, but easier and smarter than actually fighting a fair fight.

 

[Nicslagan]

alright then feel free to show me a kung fu guard pass or an escape from when someones taken your back

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RuuY63AEps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKwYmiGt7po
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGFxSVLcP0A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8xaBmql3k8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=082E3TtMuf0

Oh, and read this.

One can see that many original Chinese chin na techniques resemble those found in other grappling based arts such as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.[3] Depending on the school and instructor, chin na is assembled in different ways. Some chin na systems resemble Brazilian Jiu Jitsu due to their focus on ground grappling. Another may be more similar to Judo due to their focus on standing Rou Dao (the soft techniques of chin na). The next school may appear more like Hapkido due to their focus on wrist and small joint locks.

It comes from this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_Na

 

[Jukai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RuuY63AEps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKwYmiGt7po
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGFxSVLcP0A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8xaBmql3k8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=082E3TtMuf0

Oh, and read this.

One can see that many original Chinese chin na techniques resemble those found in other grappling based arts such as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.[3] Depending on the school and instructor, chin na is assembled in different ways. Some chin na systems resemble Brazilian Jiu Jitsu due to their focus on ground grappling. Another may be more similar to Judo due to their focus on standing Rou Dao (the soft techniques of chin na). The next school may appear more like Hapkido due to their focus on wrist and small joint locks.

It comes from this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_Na

Some things 'resembling' each other doesn't mean that one evolved from the other. Savate resembles American style kickboxing and yet they evolved completely separately.

Alternatively, a 2009 video of groundwork doesn't mean that it was originally in the art of Chin Na.

This is poor evidence.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RuuY63AEps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKwYmiGt7po
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGFxSVLcP0A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8xaBmql3k8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=082E3TtMuf0

I said traditional not someone who watched a few bjj videos online and claimed it was a secret technique in their forms. Oh but wait he has the deadly neck snap you need to be careful with!

On top of that his technique is poor and riddled with errors as dicussed here


http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53920


O

ne can see that many original Chinese chin na techniques resemble those found in other grappling based arts such as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.[3] Depending on the school and instructor, chin na is assembled in different ways. Some chin na systems resemble Brazilian Jiu Jitsu due to their focus on ground grappling. Another may be more similar to Judo due to their focus on standing Rou Dao (the soft techniques of chin na). The next school may appear more like Hapkido due to their focus on wrist and small joint locks.

It comes from this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_Na

a. I know what chin na is

B There is absolutely no evidence the Japanese ground arts were influenced by anything from china. This is another silly myth like the notion Tamo brought martial arts to China. The Japanese kept quiet detailed records of their arts so their would be adequate evidence of this if it were true.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Some things 'resembling' each other doesn't mean that one evolved from the other. Savate resembles American style kickboxing and yet they evolved completely separately.

Alternatively, a 2009 video of groundwork doesn't mean that it was originally in the art of Chin Na.

This is poor evidence.

 

[Nicslagan]

I said traditional not someone who watched a few bjj videos online and claimed it was a secret technique in their forms. Oh but wait he has the deadly neck snap you need to be careful with!

On top of that his technique is poor and riddled with errors as dicussed here


http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53920


O

a. I know what chin na is

B There is absolutely no evidence the Japanese ground arts were influenced by anything from china. This is another silly myth like the notion Tamo brought martial arts to China. The Japanese kept quiet detailed records of their arts so their would be adequate evidence of this if it were true.

You asked for videos and I showed you videos. I also showed you an article. So you really think the Chinese are complete idiots and never came up with a ground fighting system? They were the first to use gunpowder and came up with very detailed martial arts. You think they came up with all that other stuff and just completely ignored the ground. You don't think all those Kung Fu instructors many years ago weren't challenged by big guys telling them that their Kung Fu doesn't work if I take you down?

What proof do you have that this guy watched some bjj videos and then said they were Chin Na?

your video link doesn't work but I know what you are showing me...beginner's groundfighting class stuff or maybe to the point of basic gnp defense.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

You asked for videos and I showed you videos.

You showed me videos of an unknown practitioner who doesn't list his credentials and is showing horribly poor technique that he either made up or attempted to badly lift from a grappling vhs.

That thread from KFM forum i posted has an mma coach, a dog brother who is a gracie bjj black belt and veteran prize fighter, another sanda coach who learned from Chan Tai San and a slew of other grapplers so i take it when they say what hes showing looks like absolute crap we can trust them given their credentials.

On top of that how come no other tai chi or wing chun lineages show what this guy is doing? You mean to tell me random dude teaching out of his garage somehow managed to have the secret ground fighting techniques of kung fu passed to him yet lineage holders in the arts he claims he knows dont?

YI also showed you an article.

You showed me a wiki link that anyone can alter for one and two it did nothing to establish chin na was the base for which the Japanese ground arts came from. Again provide me with a credible scholarly evidence of this.

So you really think the Chinese never came up with a ground fighting system?

Seeing how countless arts have survived for centuries yet nothing resembling a a ground wrestling art has id wager thats a big fat yes.

They were and came up with very detailed martial arts.

False. detailed methods of combat have existed since the earliest human civilzations.

hat proof do you have that this guy watched some bjj videos and then said they were Chin Na?

See my explanation above.

 

[Winbot]

I want to learn that one style, you know.. the one where you learn to fly through the tree tops, jumping branch to branch with a sword or, a spear or maybe, just a stick if you're poor I guess.

 

[Pearse Shields]

BJJ came from Chin Na.

Lol.

 

[ironwolf]

I live in China and train Muay Thai lol.

That being said, I actually have some friends that take traditional forms of Kung Fu very seriously, like training 4 times a week for 3 hours. They are good at it but its not my thing.

I do however take a Sanda class once a week. Reason is that im interested in HW kickboxing tournaments like k1, glory etc and there are lots of opportunities for competitions like that here so I figure knowing a bit of Sanda wont hurt.

On a side note, every few weeks we have a big kickboxing smoker, lots of Muay Thai, Sanda, Karate, Savate, TKD and more show up. Its a lot of fun and while MT generally takes the show, we see some good fighting from the other guys.

 

[jensen34]

When mixed with MT, capoeira is amazing. It is a lot of work and you can't take it apart part by part. You have to just enjoy the art and the game, playing capoeira, by the rules.

There are a group of guys here that mixed it with MT. They can spin dodge head kicks and TKD turning kicks better than anyone. They fight conventionally, but if they sting you with a punch or teep, they start into the jinga and throw the hardest god dam finishing kicks you will ever see.

Interesting. I remember seeing a fight science show on one of those discovery channels where they compared kicks from MT, TKD and the capoeira kicks produced the largest amount of force by a pretty decent margin. What was cool was they didn't look nearly as devastating as the other two styles, but the proof was in the data collected.