Eye gouging against a trained grappler is easier said than done. (Share your experiences)

[DoctorTaco]

Oh shit. I didn't realise he doxed his way off the forum. I thought it was when he picked a fight with Josh Barnett who called out his fake claims of lineage for catch.

Nope. Literally called my boss to complain about my posts and sent him screen shots of our DM’s. Bossman wisely asked Dan for a link to the thread and screen caps of ALL our messages instead of just a few selected ones and Dan started making excuses for his own behavior rather than complaining of mine

 

[ChickenBrother]

Oh shit. I didn't realise he doxed his way off the forum. I thought it was when he picked a fight with Josh Barnett who called out his fake claims of lineage for catch.

Barnett calling him out was f'ing hilarious

 

[maximus__]

Barnett calling him out was f'ing hilarious

I genuinely though that was why he got booted finally, but now I do remember something about him calling someones workplace. I am guessing it blended in during a period when half of the War room regulars all got banned for similar stuff during covid.

He basically challenged Josh Barnett to a fight before calling him and his lineage trash before trying to run it back. He pops up in a book called The Fighters heart by Sam Sheridan. He was training at Miletich FIghting Systems at the time and was the crazy old guy doing weird techniques back then.

I have now gone on a reddit rabbit hole search. He keeps popping up and arguing with much more credentialed grapplers saying they have stolen his techniques.

Edit:
I found an erotic novel he semi published...

 

[TheMaster]

I genuinely though that was why he got booted finally, but now I do remember something about him calling someones workplace. I am guessing it blended in during a period when half of the War room regulars all got banned for similar stuff during covid.

He basically challenged Josh Barnett to a fight before calling him and his lineage trash before trying to run it back. He pops up in a book called The Fighters heart by Sam Sheridan. He was training at Miletich FIghting Systems at the time and was the crazy old guy doing weird techniques back then.

I have now gone on a reddit rabbit hole search. He keeps popping up and arguing with much more credentialed grapplers saying they have stolen his techniques.

Edit:
I found an erotic novel he semi published...

He was outspoken and name dropped a lot but to be fair he did sometimes share nice variations of techniques.
Anyway let's not derail the thread but since this has been raised I remember when he got banned so I will post this for his side.

 

[TheMaster]

A lot of these didn't end careers but they ended the fight.

 

[maximus__]

He was outspoken and name dropped a lot but to be fair he did sometimes share nice variations of techniques.
Anyway let's not derail the thread but since this has been raised I remember when he got banned so I will post this for his side.

They were false claims that was the issue. He would claim that he was effectively teaching fighters specific techniques when the reality was he was just in the sparring room and usually being used as an off camp rest round.

HIs main lineage he was claiming in catch was pulled apart when someone in that lineage told him to stop lying.

A lot of these didn't end careers but they ended the fight.

Did you even watch the video? 2 were due to Mazzagatti incompetence. He stopped one instantly and missed the other completely. Both fighters assumed they would get time under the ruleset to recover. Mitrione fought 3 rounds being poked multiple times before eventually being Tko'd. They effected but didn't finish the fight.

It's the same issue as always though. 1 fighter using an attack outside the ruleset to commit fouls against his opponent who isn't doing it back.

Here is what happened when Rumble realised eye pokes were on the table against Gustaffson...


Guard comes up, forward pressure and gets inside that reach to chase him down for the finish. Gustaffson continues to paw with his fingers towards Anthony's face the entire time, but he keeps himself safe with basic movement and offence.

 

[TheMaster]

Did you even watch the video? 2 were due to Mazzagatti incompetence. He stopped one instantly and missed the other completely. Both fighters assumed they would get time under the ruleset to recover. Mitrione fought 3 rounds being poked multiple times before eventually being Tko'd. They effected but didn't finish the fight.

These are accidental eye pokes, they weren't done with the intent to finish the fight. If they were that's a different story.

It's the same issue as always though. 1 fighter using an attack outside the ruleset to commit fouls against his opponent who isn't doing it back.

And as I have been saying, if someone does eye or groin attacks with intent first, the other guys may not get a chance to return the favor.

Here is what happened when Rumble realised eye pokes were on the table against Gustaffson...

It was a slight grazing finger and it immediately affected him. Imagine if he did it with intent.
I don't get what the defensiveness is about just admitting that these strikes are dangerous, even to a trained fighter. No skilled martial artist relies on them, but we should accept the risk is there and it could be somewhat of an equaliser.
Bas Ruttens go to move in a street fight is apparently the kick to the groin, despite being renowned as one of the most powerful strikers of all time so that says something.

Kesa gatame is a specialist position and works well in Judo because you can't strike and eye gouge. You tie yourself into a pin you can't exit from easily. To attack you need to release the hand right near your eyes and groin or give up positon. If you go for the armbar with your legs, you again present your groin more than guard. You have no real mobility and can't defend from knees to the spine and back. Spazzy white belts try the old spinal knee escape all the time.

There are finishing chokes from Kesa that don't require removing the arm in addition to the arm triangle, such as the fist neck compression with the free hand.

Regarding knees to the spine yes maybe if you have it quite upright and the guy is trained at using knees powerfully. Still, you are talking as though modern sport BJJ is trained with MMA striking in mind which is not the case at all, let alone illegal strikes.

Let's not forget Renzo vs Frank Shamrock. As Frank put it "while Renzo was doing his masterful Jiu Jitsu, I knocked him out from the bottom" (in side control).



The 'winner' of the bout after


You could argue that Renzo could have also kneed from that position. Yes, but Frank
still proved a point. If the position is vulnerable to knees then its not a real fight anymore it's a grappling rules match and he wasn't going to go down like that. We are taking the same principle here one step further by hypothetically considering no rules at all.

So let's not pretend that modern sport grappling is generally geared towards even defending strikes, let alone illegal blows. I don't see therefore how the modern sport grappler will be prepared to defend these strikes, particularly against someone who has had training themselves.

 

[maximus__]

These are accidental eye pokes, they weren't done with the intent to finish the fight. If they were that's a different story.

And as I have been saying, if someone does eye or groin attacks with intent first, the other guys may not get a chance to return the favor.


It was a slight grazing finger and it immediately affected him. Imagine if he did it with intent.
I don't get what the defensiveness is about just admitting that these strikes are dangerous, even to a trained fighter. No skilled martial artist relies on them, but we should accept the risk is there and it could be somewhat of an equaliser.
Bas Ruttens go to move in a street fight is apparently the kick to the groin, despite being renowned as one of the most powerful strikers of all time so that says something.

There are finishing chokes from Kesa that don't require removing the arm in addition to the arm triangle, such as the fist neck compression with the free hand.

Regarding knees to the spine yes maybe if you have it quite upright and the guy is trained at using knees powerfully. Still, you are talking as though modern sport BJJ is trained with MMA striking in mind which is not the case at all, let alone illegal strikes.

Let's not forget Renzo vs Frank Shamrock. As Frank put it "while Renzo was doing his masterful Jiu Jitsu, I knocked him out from the bottom" (in side control).



The 'winner' of the bout after
View attachment 1018517

You could argue that Renzo could have also kneed from that position. Yes, but Frank
still proved a point. If the position is vulnerable to knees then its not a real fight anymore it's a grappling rules match and he wasn't going to go down like that. We are taking the same principle here one step further by hypothetically considering no rules at all.

So let's not pretend that modern sport grappling is generally geared towards even defending strikes, let alone illegal blows. I don't see therefore how the modern sport grappler will be prepared to defend these strikes, particularly against someone who has had training themselves.

You are using examples from sports that don't allow the technique and fighters not expecting they will be attacked like this and still we have less than 100 really good examples across 30 years of MMA and fighting. I have never said eye pokes don't work. I said when untrained athlete fights trained athlete with eye pokes, trained fighter can just land those techniques and do it better from positions of control. You posting videos of fights not getting stopped for multiple eye pokes supports this position and they aren't even from grappling, which is the topic of the thread.

If someone pokes someone in the eye in your examples they have made the conscious decision to open their hands and put them in a dangerous position. We have plenty of fighters who did this because they will only get warnings and it deters your opponent closing distance. I have never poked another fighter in the eye whilst striking in years of sparring. I have been poked during grappling and fought through it, yet we never seem to see the same thing in the higher leagues of MMA.

Kesa gatame is a poor position outside of pinning based sports. It completely relies on your opponent not being able to do specific things. Every single attack you can do from there can be done from a better position that doesn't leave you lying with your back towards your opponent and no way to quickly get up. What do you consider modern sport BJJ? Because right now the greatest modern sport gi BJJ player is probably Nicholas Meragali, who transitioned across to ADCC with 5 months training. He was able to adapt his game to deal with slams and no grips within that short period. That's the level of modern BJJ these days. Let alone if you give the man grips.

Frank Shamrock was one of the most all round skilled MMArtists of his time. He isn't the guy to try and use to prove your argument. He was pinned and couldn't escape so he threw an illegal strike after asking for the ref to stand them up. As you said yourself imagine if Renzo had been throwing knees to his opponent the entire time. He did spent around 4 mins of the first round in side control, top half guard and stood up as he was landing strikes from knee on belly and Frank was saved by the bell from crucifix position. If they were playing by the same rules which Renzo competed under for years, Frank doesn't make it out of that round.

 

[maximus__]

Nope. Literally called my boss to complain about my posts and sent him screen shots of our DM’s. Bossman wisely asked Dan for a link to the thread and screen caps of ALL our messages instead of just a few selected ones and Dan started making excuses for his own behavior rather than complaining of mine

I no longer miss the Wolfman after my reddit deep dive and this information haha

 

[teamventure09]

A lot of these didn't end careers but they ended the fight.

What does this have to do with the OP?

 

[TheMaster]

What does this have to do with the OP?

I think it's quite obvious isn't it. The effect of eye gouges, regardless of where they happen.
If you can find a compilation of eye gouges from grappling then post it.

 

[Oldguy]

My old Shotokan Karate instructor used to believe stupid stuff like this. He was showing me some stupid karate ground technique one time. So, for fun, I took the mount. He immediately went to grab my groin. I just pinned his arm and put him in a mounted triangle. It was like taking candy from a baby.

Same thing for guillotines. The dumb karate guys immediately go for the groin. When I explain that they would be unconscious, they stare back at me with a dumb look on their face. I should have just put one of them to sleep.

 

[TheMaster]

Same thing for guillotines. The dumb karate guys immediately go for the groin. When I explain that they would be unconscious, they stare back at me with a dumb look on their face. I should have just put one of them to sleep.

For that defence to work, you would need to defend the guillotine with one hand while going for the groin with the other, especially if they were good at it. There is video evidence on this thread that it can be done however to stop the choke, so that dismisses the idea in some grappling circles that these types of attacks can't be used to prevent some submission holds.

The other thing is that in a rolling or sparring situation, no one will be fully going for the groin or eye attacks for obvious reasons, whereas you tend to really put the submission holds on, so this also makes it harder to determine the point at which it would render the submission hold not viable.
There is a middle ground between the fantasy of illegal strikes being an automatic win whatever the situation, vs the equal fantasy that they can't be used effectively with intent to end the fight or break certain holds or positions.

 

[randomg1t]

If you know how to fight the same weapons they use are available to you. Delusional people think they can beat a trained fighter because of "no rules"

thread ended in the first reply, as far as i'm concerned.

i always thought it was hilarious when people would say "you hit a black belt once, he turns into a brown belt" to suggest that they can overcome superior grappler just by hitting them repeatedly. it's definitely true that getting punched changes the game and will make a lot of people panic... but what happens when the black belt hits your untrained white belt ass? what do you turn into?

eye gouging is brutal but unless both of my arms are trapped somewhere while they're doing it, they won't be doing it to me for a very long time. and once their nasty fingers are out of my eyes i'm having a field day with every joint in their upper body.

 

[DoctorTaco]

i always thought it was hilarious when people would say "you hit a black belt once, he turns into a brown belt" to suggest that they can overcome superior grappler just by hitting them repeatedly. it's definitely true that getting punched changes the game and will make a lot of people panic... but what happens when the black belt hits your untrained white belt ass? what do you turn into?

When I’m training strikers to fight grapplers I refer to that expression but try to be more honest. “Every time you punch a black belt a stripe falls off their belt” haha

 

[TheMaster]

I think we're pretty much saying the same thing dude. And yeah, I don't wear a cup either and the incidental ball strikes I've taken are infrequent enough, and have not done material damage to the point I feel the need. However, the BB at our gym who got sent to the ER now wears a cup every roll and says he's not taking any chances.

Completely onboard that a "grappler will just foul them back, but do it better" in most cases. But that wouldn't be possible if the grappler is physically incapable of fighting back. And the two instances I've experienced where that happened (other than being KTFO) was a rear thrust kick to the liver from a pro fighter and a hard shot to the nuts (accidental). A brawler is unlikely to pull off the first and while the second is still low %, it is entirely possible in a spazzy scramble. Again I'm not talking a ballbag dim mak specialist but a spazzy guy flailing punches and kicks everywhere inside your guard and anywhere else. I'd equate that risk to just "getting caught" by an inferior striker.

Would you consider the mount to be a safe position in a hypothetical self defence situation against someone going for groin attacks?

Obviously guy on top can strike better and go for subs, but positionally both the mount itself and getting there seem to me to be clearly susceptible to groin strikes or grab.
The bottom guy could possibly be doing this as a goto move to remove top position in a no rules scenario, I don't see how it could be considered as safe. How would you theoretically protect against this possibility if you were in mount, aside from maybe raining down punches so bottom has no choice but to protect his head?

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

Would you consider the mount to be a safe position in a hypothetical self defence situation against someone going for groin attacks?
View attachment 1023961View attachment 1023962
Obviously guy on top can strike better and go for subs, but positionally both the mount itself and getting there seem to me to be clearly susceptible to groin strikes or grab.
The bottom guy could possibly be doing this as a goto move to remove top position in a no rules scenario, I don't see how it could be considered as safe. How would you theoretically protect against this possibility if you were in mount, aside from maybe raining down punches so bottom has no choice but to protect his head?

This is an interesting thought experiment.

Four words for ya: limb isolation/wrist control. In any effective pinning position you should have one limb isolated and the other monitored or controlled. For self defense the name of the game is risk mitigation. Take away what they can use to attack you and put them in positions where you can attack them.

I had some experience with this kinda deal in combat school. Got into a bit of a scuffle with someone over some dumb shit that I can hardly remember. We went out into the tree line and settled our disagreements the old fashioned way. I took the fightbdown quickly, got the mount, hit him a few times, and he stared reaching for my balls. Immediately focused on wrist control and sank back into grapevine mount until I could force his hands awayfrom my waistline. Transitioned to technical mount with a gift wrap so that he only had the bottom hand to work with. Took the back, got the choke, went back to training.

I think groin attacks absolutely change the approach of the fight but don't change the validity of these pinning positions. It simply forces you to be more cognizant of controlling your opponents hands. You can still deter your opponent reaching for your family jewls with strikes and submissions. You can also use shin staples, deep under hooks, and direct wrist pins to address the threat.

All of this is easy when dealing with untrained people. If the person has some level of know how then it'd be a serious issue me thinks

 

[ChickenBrother]

Would you consider the mount to be a safe position in a hypothetical self defence situation against someone going for groin attacks?
View attachment 1023961View attachment 1023962
Obviously guy on top can strike better and go for subs, but positionally both the mount itself and getting there seem to me to be clearly susceptible to groin strikes or grab.
The bottom guy could possibly be doing this as a goto move to remove top position in a no rules scenario, I don't see how it could be considered as safe. How would you theoretically protect against this possibility if you were in mount, aside from maybe raining down punches so bottom has no choice but to protect his head?

Since it's all hypothetical, I don't think there's really any "safe" position in a no holds barred fight. The odds might be small but you'll always be one lucky eye gouge, punch or nutsack dim mak away from being cheap shotted into bolivian. Best way to avoid punch... no be there!

That said, I'd always prefer top mount to bottom mount or really any bottom position including guard. If a soccer kick dickpoke fu enthusiast is on top, he has gravity in his favor and his wild kicks, punches, knees and elbows will be more dangerous than if he's underneath, even if he's still targeting your wang.

 

[Trabaho]

Dad bod krav magma guys thinking they know the secret realistic tehniques. Like some kickboxer or mma guy, who actually spars and rolls, can't poke you in the eye or kick your nuts faster.

 

[Trabaho]

Well a lot of people never tried to grapple