GOAT Rankings. Just our individual Sher-expert opinions. March Update.

[GOATtalks]

5-4 bud, and it took Stipe 2 title reigns to get that far. Sorry!

Lol common opponents is one of the most important? <45>

I couldn’t even comment on how that “metric” looks for my favorite fighters, because it’s totally meaningless and not something I would ever care to look at. But hey, let’s look at how super importantly awesome it is.

—Nate Diaz got 50-45ed (and 50-43ed) by Benson Henderson, whereas Anthony Pettis beat Benson twice, including once by finish. Guess Pettis is “better” than Nate. Derp. Of course that’s not what happened when they fought at all, Nate beat Pettis up and 30-27ed him. Would I rank Pettis higher all time? Of course, but it’s because of what he’s accomplished on my metrics. Yours are meaningless here, it’s not an accurate predictor of who’s “better” at all.

—Brian Ebersole finished Hallman in the first round, while Matt Hughes lost to Hallman twice. So, Ebersole over Hughes all time? Lol no.

—Overeem finished Stefan Struve, and Struve finished Stipe, so I guess that means Overeem is better and we should rank him higher? Of course, Stipe beat Overeem, and no one ranks Overeem higher. In fact, no one would rank Overeem higher even if they didn’t go H2H, and that’s the point.

—Amanda Nunes has losses to 3 different fighters that Ronda destroyed. Guess Ronda is better and we should rank her higher. In fact, since Holly KOed Ronda and Miesha finished Holly, I guess that makes Miesha the GOAT! Fucking hell.

You use common opponents as a metric to compare fighters who never went head to head, and as I’ve just demonstrated, it’s not a reliable predictor. It doesn’t account for:
—bad style matchups
—fluke wins/losses
—cage or ring
—various rulesets
—-ages of fighters
—injuries they may have suffered

Additionally, if you are trying to compare fighters fighting in the same division and same era for a long enough time, they’ll just have alternating wins and losses to common opponents, like the Rose-Joanna example I gave you awhile back.
Do I need to go on? Trying to determine who is better using common opponents is a child’s way of thinking. Actually, that’s probably an insult to children, I’m sure there are some smart ones who would see how illogical it is.

Lol, sample size matters.

Let’s take Aldo.

Aldo’s best wins- Mendes, Frankie, KZ, Lamas, Cub all got starched by fighters like Max, Volk, Conor and even Ortega.

Max also beat Aldo twice and schooled Ortega.

Volk beat Max whooping 3 times, beat Aldo and also beat Ortega.

It’s clear as a day that Volk is better than Aldo, you can’t argue against that. Volk has better cardio, wrestling, fight IQ, movement and probably also his overall striking is better than Aldo’s. Aldo might’ve been more explosive and that’s it.

There are levels to this game.

 

[BFoe]

Lol, sample size matters.

Let’s take Aldo.

Aldo’s best wins- Mendes, Frankie, KZ, Lamas, Cub all got starched by fighters like Max, Volk, Conor and even Ortega.

Max also beat Aldo twice and schooled Ortega.

Volk beat Max whooping 3 times, beat Aldo and also beat Ortega.

It’s clear as a day that Volk is better than Aldo, you can’t argue against that. Volk has better cardio, wrestling, fight IQ, movement and probably also his overall striking is better than Aldo’s. Aldo might’ve been more explosive and that’s it.

There are levels to this game.

Lol sample size? I came up with those examples off the top of my head while I was writing that post. This ranking we’re debating is a GOAT ranking, Greatest of All Time. If I started pulling up as many fighters’ resumes as I could, in every weight class, from 1993-present, I can’t even imagine how many examples of this I’d find.

But this silly shit you’re illustrating is exactly why you like this “metric.” You want to be able to compare a Cub Swanson fight from 2009 to the version of Cub fighting in 2015 and act like its meaningful. You want to compare Arlovski fights from 2006-2009 to Arlovski fights in 2017-2020, or JDS fights from 2011 to those in 2020 and pretend it’s relevant. You like it because you think it gives you an excuse to prop up fighters as GOATs when in fact they have not surpassed the accomplishments of the real GOATs. Using a metric like this goes a long way towards explaining why your ranking lists turn out so goofy.

 

[Dana's Moonface]

Silva
Jones
GSP
Fedor
Khabib
DJ
Aldo
BJ
DC
Hughes/Saku

 

[Magnum1978]

Khabib and Volk above Silva and Johnson is just nonsense. Noob stuff

btw

- Official sherdog p4p rankings during GSP championship years:

2012 - Silva #1
https://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/Sherdogcoms-PoundforPound-Top-10-45047

2011 - Silva #1
https://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/Sherdogcoms-PoundforPound-Top-10-36383

2010 - Silva #1
https://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/Sherdogcoms-PoundforPound-Top-10-23166

2009 - Silva #1
https://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/Sherdogcoms-PoundforPound-Top-10-17145

2008 - Silva #1
https://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/GSP-Moves-Up-P4P-List-But-Not-to-Top-12459

Silva popped for roids. Fought many sub-par / green opponents in a division stacked with opponents playing perfectly into his stylistic advantage (brawlers and 1D BJJ guys like green Maia, Thales Leites, Cote, Leben, Travis Lutter, etc etc... his LHW fights were against stylistic dreams too, brawler Forrest, brawler Bonnar, brawler Irvin ). Had the Zuffa push for his 'p4p' status that reflected the relative weakness MW through the period. The only decent wrestler he fought was Sonnen who dominated him for the whole fight until the hail mary. Silva is a great fighter, I'm not shitting on him but his work and dominance isn't at the level of Khabib or Volk, sorry. Plus yeah, roids.

Johnson, great fighter and cleaned the very early and green FW division and then moved to OneFC where he lost (and yes avenged but still) - and DJ hasn't finished his career yet so that could still mean he moves up and down. Just now though, Volk's in a much tougher division as was Khabib in LW. Khabib has been totally dominant across his career bar perhaps one fight where he arguably drew at worst. Every other fight was complete dominance.

That's why Khabib and Volk are above both DJ and Silva. And fair enough too. I stand by it.

Cool yeah I've been around here a decade longer than you but I'm the noob. STFU cunt

 

[The Witcher]

Literally every media outlet has Jones as best ever to do it. All of them.

 

[pankrat]

Silva popped for roids. Fought many sub-par / green opponents in a division stacked with opponents playing perfectly into his stylistic advantage (brawlers and 1D BJJ guys like green Maia, Thales Leites, Cote, Leben, Travis Lutter, etc etc... his LHW fights were against stylistic dreams too, brawler Forrest, brawler Bonnar, brawler Irvin ). Had the Zuffa push for his 'p4p' status that reflected the relative weakness MW through the period. The only decent wrestler he fought was Sonnen who dominated him for the whole fight until the hail mary. Silva is a great fighter, I'm not shitting on him but his work and dominance isn't at the level of Khabib or Volk, sorry. Plus yeah, roids.

Johnson, great fighter and cleaned the very early and green FW division and then moved to OneFC where he lost (and yes avenged but still) - and DJ hasn't finished his career yet so that could still mean he moves up and down. Just now though, Volk's in a much tougher division as was Khabib in LW. Khabib has been totally dominant across his career bar perhaps one fight where he arguably drew at worst. Every other fight was complete dominance.

That's why Khabib and Volk are above both DJ and Silva. And fair enough too. I stand by it.

Cool yeah I've been around here a decade longer than you but I'm the noob. STFU cunt

It seems you've been around for more than a decade swallowing and parroting textbook sherbro memes.

Silva's and GSP's tittle contenders were comparably legitimate, as evidenced by odds and results when they were matched up, from Maia-Fitch to Okami-Shields to plenty of examples, this theory that the guys in a division next to each other were legitimate but the others were "one dimensional brawlers" or whatever textbook shertard BS you spit is nonsense and stupid. Its actually retarded.
If such was the case WW contenders would just move up and take the money and exposure involved in a tittle fight. We see fighters moving from WW-MW all the time. It happens that outside of brainless fanboys making up stupid revisionism, it doesnt work like that.

Silva's p4p status and particularly above GSP was a consequence of dispatching comparably caliber of competition but instead of by jury decisions, by a wide array of finishing techniques, as well as not having a recent upset loss the kind of Georges had to Matt Serra. Anything else is fanboys rivisioning history and making up stupid theories that dont hold up in the eyes of any fan/pundit with the slighest clue.

Btw, Sonnen the only "decent" wrestler Silva fought? Sonnen himself just a "decent" wrestler? Step up your game dude. 15 years on here and still textbook white belt shertard

 

[Magnum1978]

It seems you've been around for more than a decade swallowing and parroting textbook sherbro memes.

Silva's and GSP's tittle contenders were comparably legitimate, as evidenced by odds and results when they were matched up, from Maia-Fitch to Okami-Shields to plenty of examples, this theory that the guys in a division next to each other were legitimate but the others were "one dimensional brawlers" or whatever textbook shertard BS you spit is nonsense and stupid. Its actually retarded.
If such was the case WW contenders would just move up and take the money and exposure involved in a tittle fight. We see fighters moving from WW-MW all the time. It happens that outside of brainless fanboys making up stupid revisionism, it doesnt work like that.

Silva's p4p status and particularly above GSP was a consequence of dispatching comparably caliber of competition but instead of by jury decisions, by a wide array of finishing techniques, as well as not having a recent upset loss the kind of Georges had to Matt Serra. Anything else is fanboys rivisioning history and making up stupid theories that dont hold up in the eyes of any fan/pundit with the slighest clue.

Btw, Sonnen the only "decent" wrestler Silva fought? Sonnen himself just a "decent" wrestler? Step up your game dude. 15 years on here and still textbook white belt shertard

Name the decent wrestlers Silva faced during his dominating run? Yes GSP had many decisions against his competition but...

Actually nope... this is why I don't come to Sherdog much anymore. I'm 45 years old, I've been training BJJ and MMA for over 20 years, I've been watching this game from the start and training for well over half of this but whatever, its meaningless, I get accused of whitebelt level trolling and meme shitposting from someone I GUARANTEE hasn't watched for more than 10 years.

So Fuck it... you're right, I'm wrong; My opinion was retarded as you say. Silva should be on my list above Khabib and Volk. Congrats on changing my mind you win.

 

[pankrat]

Name the decent wrestlers Silva faced during his dominating run? Yes GSP had many decisions against his competition but...

Actually nope... this is why I don't come to Sherdog much anymore. I'm 45 years old, I've been training BJJ and MMA for over 20 years, I've been watching this game from the start and training for well over half of this but whatever, its meaningless, I get accused of whitebelt level trolling and meme shitposting from someone I GUARANTEE hasn't watched for more than 10 years.

So Fuck it... you're right, I'm wrong; My opinion was retarded as you say. Silva should be on my list above Khabib and Volk. Congrats on changing my mind you win.

The fact you dont acknowledge Okami or Henderson as not even "decent" wrestlers shows me that you are either a troll or a retarted white belt shertard. Doesnt matter how much you brag about alleged combat experience, you are very ignorant.

Funny thing is that Maia went to dominate the long time #2 WW and allegedly epithome of elite wrestler Fitch in his own game, taking him down at will. Zero succes he had with Silva. Zero. 0/15 in TDs. It seems he learned to wrestle in a couple years already in his 30s....or rather you just parrot obscenely simpleton white belt BS? You are not fooling anybody, and lf you are actually 45 that only makes it sad, with all due respect.

 

[Roman Reigns GF]

Jones and GSP are 1a and 1b
Silva fedor Aldo 345
Mighty Mouse 6
BJ Penn 7
Shogun 8
Khabib 9
DC 10

could easily change day by day especially 6-10

I agree with your list, except I take out Penn and replace him with Hendo.

 

[cheesus]

Drug cheats shouldn't be in the discussion ..

Fedor
GSP
Aldo
DC
Khabib
MM
Triple C
BJ
Hendo
Shogun

Imagine believing this guy is 100% natty

 

[Gregoire1]

1 Jones
2. Fedor
3. GSP
4. Anderson
5 - Aldo
6 - DJ/Cruz
7 - Volk
8 - Usman/Stipe
9 - Khabib/DC
10 - Cejudo

 

[Corona]

Anyone who has fraudo or canderson over GSP and jon jons has more CTE than BJ Penn. Even putting them them over Canbib is a stretch.

 

[Magnum1978]

The fact you dont acknowledge Okami or Henderson as not even "decent" wrestlers shows me that you are either a troll or a retarted white belt shertard. Doesnt matter how much you brag about alleged combat experience, you are very ignorant.

Funny thing is that Maia went to dominate the long time #2 WW and allegedly epithome of elite wrestler Fitch in his own game, taking him down at will. Zero succes he had with Silva. Zero. 0/15 in TDs. It seems he learned to wrestle in a couple years already in his 30s....or rather you just parrot obscenely simpleton white belt BS? You are not fooling anybody, and lf you are actually 45 that only makes it sad, with all due respect.

I could continue to debate you but I won't. That's enough to know I have the maturity you lack. Have a good one.

 

[pankrat]

I could continue to debate you but I won't. That's enough to know I have the maturity you lack. Have a good one.

Maia learned to wrestle in a couple of years already in his 30s, Okami and Hendo didnt know to wrestle...

... and you are a mature guy with ton of combat experience. Jo jo.

Maturity would be to acknowledge how dishonest/ignorant is your stance. You are not fooling anybody. Grow up is about time

 

[Magnum1978]

Maia learned to wrestle in a couple of years already in his 30s, Okami and Hendo didnt know to wrestle...

... and you are a mature guy with ton of combat experience. Jo jo.

Maturity would be to acknowledge how dishonest/ignorant is your stance. You are not fooling anybody. Grow up is about time

Urgh, if you really want me to continue to debate you fine...

We're talking about Silva here - none of my statements have been 'dishonest' or 'ignorant' at all. And I'm not trashing the guy, I'm being realistic given I understand the context at the time (as a dedicated fan it as it happened back in the day and having also seen the UFC grow through that period could see past the UFC bluster and marketing of him as they took over the MMA landscape after the fall of Pride - and still having serious competition at the time from Affliction, Strikeforce and EliteXC with many great fighters outside the org).

But I'm still happily acknowledging that Anderson one of the best of all time... I simply said that Khabib and possibly Volk have it over him IMO.

Yes, Dan Henderson is a fantastic win for Silva, probably the his best of his career. That being said, Hendo came in off a loss and if you were around at the time (which I doubt) you'd remember Dan acknowledged that was the worst weight cut of his career. As for being a top wrestler, he was a great wrestler but at that point in his career had effectively given up on being a wrestler and was far more interested in KO'ing people with his devastating right hand. His wresting, being a greco guy was always from the clinch, which is far from the type of freestyle wrestler that was a difficult match up for Anderson like Sonnen was.

Okami is a serviceable wrestler. A journeyman. Not in the same class as either Hendo or Sonnen. He was a good all-rounded jack of all trades at a level around that of Nate Marquardt, who was also one of Anderson's victims. As I said, you can classify Anderson's epic 2008-20012 run against opponents of 4 types.

Journeymen/Brawlers
Leben
Cote
Irvin
Bonnar

Fairly 1D BJJ guys
Lutter (getting a title shot from winning a reality show)
Leites (getting a title shot over beating Drew McFedries?)
Maia (and you can't compare Maia to the Maia that fought Fitch, the Maia that fought at MW was undersized and green, the Maia that fought at WW was big for the division, far more experienced, with and Fitch was on the downslide of his career, 5 years past his title fight and shot out of the UFC from that point)

Solid Jack of all trades types but not elite anywhere
Marquardt
Okami
Forrest

Very good/elite fighters
Rich Franklin
Hendo
Sonnen (at least in the first fight when sonnen was TRT'ing hard)
Vitor (although also understand Vitor was coming off an 18-month layoff and having his first UFC fight at MW)

He can hang his hat on his epic run, because after Bonnar he was destroyed by Weidman twice, then after his recovery started to get past his prime only to face blown up LWs in Diaz, scraping past Brunson in a lucky win aside from an unceremonious losses to end his career.

He also ended up with ELEVEN losses, and most importantly, was busted for roids. Not once but TWICE.

Factoring all that in, is why I didn't have him above those other greats. I think that's a pretty reasonable take, all things considered.

 

[pankrat]

1. Silva
2. Jones
3. MM
4. Aldo
5. GSP

Silva above Jones is hard to sell at this point, or even before the past weekend

Aldo above GSP I dont see it neither

 

[Fioretti]

Silva above Jones is hard to sell at this point.

Aldo above GSP I dont see it neither

After Jones won the HW strap he should probably be above Silva. One defense and there's no question.

I have Aldo above GSP because GSP lost his first title shot and his first defense. I don't think that can or should be ignored.

 

[Davidjacksonjones]

Jon Jones
.
.
.
.
The rest

 

[Leon Edwards]

DC is above Fedor.

Jones, Andy/GSP, Aldo, mm, khabib, DC.

 

[orca]

Drug cheats shouldn't be in the discussion ..

Fedor
GSP
Aldo
DC
Khabib
MM
Triple C
BJ
Hendo
Shogun

all of them abused steroids